Äldre inlägg (arkiv) till 21 december, 2009

[Michael Kohlhaas]

Hej
 
I'm looking for Caspar Rist born abt. 1610 in Ottensen near to Hamburg, Germany.
 
He went to Sweden abt. 1635, married and settled in Lappland.
Old family-tales thougt him to be a pastor as well as his father, but he was a silversmith and copperplate engraver.  
Some works of him you can find in castle Skokloster, in the churches of Piteå and Luleå and in the Finnish National Museum in Helsinki.
 
He was married to a native (Same) and they had had at least two children as we know. One of the grandchildren should have been a professor at the university of Uppsala, but this was denied by this institution.
 
With the help of G-gruppen I found, that he was a silversmith in Piteå from 1639 to 1645. Then he went to Torneå where his trace is lost in 1646.
 
His predecessor in Piteå was a certain Mans goldsmed 1632 to 1638.  
Did he die and Caspar married his wife Brita?  
Later we found a Brita Rist in Umeå.
 
Successor of Caspar as a silversmith in Piteå was Erik Mansson Sterner, obviously son of Mans.  
 
To a remark by his brother Johann Rist, Caspar died about 1650-1655.  
And Brita went to Umeå? Or did he work in Umeå?  
Or did he go to Finland?
 
The churchbooks of Piteå beginning 1702, books of Umeå later in 1725
 
So I hope that perhaps this way will lead to some more information about life and descendants of Caspar Rist in Sweden (Finland).
 
 
Thank You
 
Michael Kohlhaas
Germany

[Maritha Berglund]

Nils Olofsson  was born abt.1600 i Stärkesmark, Umeå. He married Brita Rist (born abt.1600).  
 
Lars Håkansson Rist was born in 1570. He was the father of Brita.
Are you sure that you have found the right Brita?

[Michael Kohlhaas]

No, Maritha, this was only an idea because of the name.
Thank you; so it seems now that this point is cleared and Brita has nothing to do with Caspar Rist.
 
Michael

[Constantinus Lindfors]

Hi Michael,
 
I asked a township researcher living in Piteå about Casper Rist and thanks to him, this information will be brought to you. Sadly, my English skills are pretty low so I'm grateful if the text is being translated by other reader(s) on this forum instead. In return, we want information about the Rist family in Germany - primarily the names on Casper's parents, their data (birth, marriage and death) and the places if available. And - how do you know that Casper had two children? We lack every information about them. Thank you in advance if providing! ^_^
 
”Måns gullsmed fanns i Piteå stad till och med 1638 men är i mantalslängden för 1639 ersatt med Casper gullsmed. Måns hushåll bestod av 2 personer vilket även Caspers gjorde. Uppenbart övertog Casper bostad med rörelse från Måns men om det skett genom köp eller ingifte är omöjligt att se i längden. Ingen gåva efter Måns kan återfinnas i kyrkans räkenskaper heller och ge ledning.
 
Mantalslängden 1640 upptar hustru i särskild kolumn så där ser man att Casper var gift och han hade dessutom en piga. Han återkommer årligen i mtl med hustru fram till och med 1644 men borta 1645 utan att man kan se om någon särskild person har tagit över hans bostad med rörelsen.  
 
I mtl 1641 och 1644 noteras han som Casper Rist så det rör sig om rätt person.
 
Till staden donerades 3 mantal från Öjebyn vid stadens grundläggning men det var besvärligt att få loss den, först 1631 träffades uppgörelse med Öjebyns byamän om mantalen men det tog ytterligare en tioårs period innan ägorna var avstyckade och under staden som 1642 upprättade en förteckning över de borgare som innehade mantalsjord och storleken av innehavet. Det framgår av denna förteckning att Casper guldsmedh hade 4 skälsland. Vid en rannsakning som staden företog 1707 framkom att Casper Guldsmed hade sålt 4 skälsland åker till borgaren Hans Persson.
 
Tidpunkten framgår inte av rannsakan men kan fastställas genom boskapslängden där han förkommer en följd av år men i 1645 års längd finns bara Casper gullsmed med ett streck i kolumn för belopp. Han hade sålt kreaturen 1644 och då hade han naturligtvis inget intresse av mantalsjorden så den gick samma väg. Några senare spår efter Caspers vistelse i Piteå har jag inte sett, ej heller något som kan peka mot en trolig hustru härifrån.  
 
Erik Månsson Sterner kom till Piteå först 1648 som ogift. Enl. uppgift var han son till borgmästaren Måns Jonsson i Härnösand men om denne var samma man som den Måns gullsmed som verkade i Piteå fram till 1638 vet jag inte.”
 
Regards / Constantinus

[Anna-Carin Betzén]

Translation:  
 
Måns goldsmith lived in Piteå town until 1638, but in the taxation registers of 1639 he has been replaced by Casper goldsmith. Måns' household consisted of 2 persons, so did Casper's. Obviously Casper took over Måns' house and business, but it's impossible to derive from the records whether he acquired it through purchase or marriage. Nor do the church records list any donations received from Måns, which otherwise could've provided clues.
 
The taxation register of 1640, which lists wife in a separate column, shows Casper had a wife, and also a maid. He and his wife are listed yearly in the taxation register until 1644, but they're gone in 1645 so there's no telling if anyone particular has taken over his house and business.
 
In the 1641 and 1644 taxation registers he's listed as Casper Rist so there's no doubt it's the right person.
 
When the town was founded, 3 mantal (land area taxed with a certain amount) of land from Öjebyn village was donated to the town, but turned out to be hard to get hold of. No agreement with the representatives of Öjebyn was reached until 1631, and then it took another decade before the land was partitioned and became part of the town. In 1642 the town made a register of burghers who owned taxed land, and how much. According to the register Casper goldsmith owned 4 skälsland of land. An inquiry made by the town in 1707 showed that Casper goldsmith had sold 4 skälsland of farmland to burgher Hans Persson.
 
The inquiry doesn't state when this happened, but it can be determined through the cattle register where he's listed for a number of years - until 1645, when the amount column of Casper goldsmith's listing is canceled. He had thus sold the cattle in 1644, so he no longer had any use for the taxed land, so he sold that too. I have not seen any later traces of Casper's stay in Piteå, nor anything that suggests a likely wife from the area.
 
Erik Månsson Sterner didn't arrive in Piteå until 1648; then unmarried. He's stated to be the son of mayor Måns Jonsson in Härnösand, but whether that was the same man as the Måns goldsmith who was active in Piteå until 1638, I do not know.

[Michael Kohlhaas]

Hi,Constantinus,
 
before I hardly use my swed.-germ. dictionary and before someone will translate your lines, I can give you some information about the Rist-family.
 
Johann Rist (1607-1667), brother of Caspar, was a famous pastor and poet in Wedel, near to Hamburg and still nearer to Ottensen.
With a genealogy-friend we made an extensive research about this family since 2002 (a sister of both was Margaretha Rist, married to pastor Arnold Schepler in Ottensen/Altona, g-8-grandparents of mine).  
Another brother, Lorenz Rist (1619?-1659), as well went to Sweden and was bailiff in Jämtland 1643. Because of danish-swedish war and his partisanship for Danmark (he liked danish pølser?), he fled to Trondheim and planted a big family-tree in Norway...
And brother Christian Rist was a danish Captain-Lieutenant (1636) (more we don't know about him.)
We know three other sisters of them.
 
Parents of these known 8 children had been Caspar Rist (1581-1626) and Margarethe Ringemuth (1583-1653)
Caspar sen. had been born in Nördlingen, South-Germany, and was pastor in Ottensen.
Margaretha R. had been born in Steinbrück, near to Braunschweig (Brunswik) (and is not from Courland/Baltic as you may find in internet!)
 
Why do we know Caspar jun. has had at least two children?
Johann Rist in 1646 published a book with poems and tales.
One very nice and melancholy poem tells us the surprise when he got a letter from his brother more than 400 miles so far in the north, in Lappenland and he asked him in this poem to sent a copperplate-print from him, his wife (of so strange kind, Same!)and his children (plural) of that kind you have done in old times because we will not see again in this life.
 
In 18th century members of the Rist-family wrote, that Caspar jun. was a pastor in Lappland and they knew, that he was married to a native. They did not mention, that he was at least a copperplate-engraver, though his brother Johann once wrote, that they both, he and his brother Caspar had been introduced to copperplate-engraving in which Caspar was talented.
Pastor in Lappland? There is no Caspar Rist in the registers of swedish pastors!
He perhaps was a lay-priest? We found some Rist in 19th century in Kautokeino. The Same-Archieves in Kautokeino did not find any connections to Caspar.
 
I think, this will give you a first impression of the Rist-family from Ottensen.
Thank you very much for your help so far!
 
Perhaps it is possible to come in touch with the researcher in Piteå?  
English or German, ny German is not too bad ;-)
 
 
Kind regards
 
Michael

[Michael Kohlhaas]

Thank you, Anna-Carin, for translation!
 
So we can list some more details about Caspar Rist in Lappland.
 
As next it should be possible to find some Rist-descendants somewhere in the tundra...
 
Michael

[Göran Stenberg]

Michael Kohlhaas, so ein literarischer Name! Jeden Neujahrstag singen wir ein beliebtes Kirchenlied von Johann Rist, das fr?her auch regelmässig im schwedischen Almanach unter Januar zitiert wurde.
 
Alla som har gamla almanackor i sin ägo har väl sett att året inleddes med frasen Giv o Jesu fröjd och lycka. Jag vet inte riktigt när detta försvann, men jag tror att frasen hängde med ganska länge. Den psalmen (numera nr 194) har i alla fall Johann Rist skaldat.

[Göran Stenberg]

But back to brother Caspar and his descendants in the tundra...

[Håkan Bergström]

Just a little remark:
Piteå is not situated in Lapland.  
Lappenland is probably used as a poetic symbol of the far and wild North.

[Michael Kohlhaas]

Keine Sorge, Göran, mein Name soll hier keinen Schrecken verbreiten, ich weiss schon, dass ich nicht immer Recht habe...
 
Johann Rist as well had some contact with swedish soil: as a shipwrecked in the Balic Sea on his way to Livland in 1635(?).  
He was a sanguine allround-character and I wished I could have drunken some beer with him...
By Kaiser Ferdinand III. in Vienna he was crowned as Poeta laureatus Caesareus and so he had the honour to nominate others as 'Poeta' what he did in numerous acts, so to Lars Johannsen (1638-1674) from Sweden, called Lucidor. Lucidor back in Stockholm made fun of the kind of Johann Rist as the 'king of poets' and so ?;-)he was killed after a pub-brawl... as I was told...
 
Håkon, you are right, the word Lappenland in that poem was a kind of poet's freedom.
And in the old family-tales 'pastor in Lappland' was a mixture of unknown facts.
Anyhow, somewhere in the tundra his bones should be found, somewhat north of Piteå.
When I had been to Torneå in 1964 my genealogical nose still was not active...
 
 
Michael

[Constantinus Lindfors]

Hi again,
 
Carl-Oskar Lundström has informed me that Caspar Rist was mentioned in the book Svenskt silversmide. Guld- och silverstämplar 1520-1850 by Erik Andrén (published in 2000).  
 
Can anyone help to translate this text too? Thank you in advance.
 
På sidan 518 nämns Caspar Rist med verksamhetsåren 1639-1645. Där står det: Nämnd i boskapsl 1639 men ej 1638; flyttade 1645 till Torneå, där han nämnes även 1646. - KA mtl; Bäcksbacka; Bergman 1952 och 1953. *Arbeten: oblatskrin 1639, Piteå landskyrka; vinkanna 1641, Nederluleå kyrka, Norrbotten.
 
I boken fanns även hans stämpel avbildad som var enkelt gjort och bestod endast av bokstäverna CR. Sedan stod det även siffrorna 6674 som jag tyvärr inte tog reda på vad det stod för.
 
Regards / Constantinus

[Anna-Carin Betzén]

On page 518, Caspar Rist is mentioned as being active from 1639 to 1645. It says: 'Mentioned in cattle register 1639 but not 1638; moved 1645 to Torneå, where he is mentioned in 1646 too. - KA mtl; Bäcksbacka; Bergman 1952 and 1953 [sources as per the references list found in the book] * Works: wafer box 1639, Piteå landskyrka [the church of Piteå's rural parish]; wine jug 1641, Nederluleå church, Norrbotten county.'
 
The book also showed his maker's mark, which was very plain and just consisted of the letters CR. There was also the number 6674, which I'm sorry to say I didn't find out what it represented.

[Göran Stenberg]

There's a wine jug made by Rist in Piteå too, I think. It was stolen and restored in 1845.

[Michael Kohlhaas]

Thank you for your last news and translation. It generally confirms to that I knew about Caspar Rist in that region.
But where did he live at the end of his time and what became out of his children and are there far more descendants?
Only his silver jugs in the museums? And some hidden documents in the RA in Stockholm?
Two years ago I wrote to some 15 Rist-names (telephone-book) in Sweden, but no helpful answers.
So this attempt at Anbytarforum is a last way before closing the papers, accepting Caspar Rist's lost in the tundra...
 
Michael

[Göran Stenberg]

Don't close the papers, please. This case is too interesting, involving poetry and handicraft, i.e. arts and crafts.

[Göran Stenberg]

Man kanske skulle börja i andra änden och söka Ristar på 1700-talet och 1800-talet?
 
Michael! Haben Sie - d. h. aus späterer Zeit - irgendwo in dieser Gegend Individen mit dem Name Rist gefunden? Und wo?

[Göran Stenberg]

What about this grandson in Upsala? Do you have some further information on him?
 
(Meddelandet ändrat av GSt 2009-11-25 06:31)

[Michael Kohlhaas]

Well, Göran, as a family-researcher with  'closing the papers'  I meant to put aside and waiting with patience for new information...
 
The only Rist of old times (19th century!)in that region I found in Kautokeino, as I wrote, but no recognizable connection.
Thank you for your interest.
 
Meanwhile we can look at chapter II:
 
Ferdinand Johann Dietrich Rist was a g-2-grandson of Johann Rist; born 1754 in Krakow, Mecklenburg, died 1802 in Lier, Norway.
As a boy he came to Kopenhagen with his parents; naturalized in Norway 1777, where he became captain of the horse in 1788 at 2nd Söndenfjelske nationalen Dragonerregiment in Lier.  
We think him as the author of a Rist-family-table, we found in the archieves of the university in Kiel and which was written about 1790.
 
He noticed two sons of Caspar Rist jun.:  
N.N. Rist and 'Johann Rist'.
 
To him N.N. Rist should have been Homme de la Chambre ('Kammerherr', valet?) of Queen Christina of Sweden.
Christina reigned from 1632 to 1654, too early for a son of Caspar jun.!  
Or the son was a boy-page during the last time of her reign?
Or another Rist? Caspar jun. himself? Or his brother Christian, who later became officer in the Danish Army?  
 
That 'Johann Rist' should have been Royal [unreadable] Praepositus of [unreadable: church...?] (= provost?) in Stettin (now Szezcin); who should still have lived at the end of 17th century.
We didn't find any Rist in the registers of pastors of Stettin.
 
The author wrote about Casper Rist jun.  that he was a Royal Swedish copperplate engraver, became a pastor in Lappland, was married to a 'Lappländerin' (lappland-woman) and that all Swedish 'Rists' descended from him.
 
The author (Ferdinand Rist?) knew much of his own ancesters and of his Nowegian cousins (descendants of Lorenz Rist, see above); he knew less of his German and Swedish cousins; and we can name some mistakes, so his statements are not very reliable.
 
In a Rist-family-table of the year 1835 we found a note, that Caspar Rist jun. has had children and one grandson, who became professor of Theology in Uppsala (no name, perhaps son of a daughter of Caspar Rist jun.??).
This professor should have written a letter around 1730 to Olaus Henrich Moller in Flensburg, son of a famous historian, genealogist and school-director in Flensburg.
I searched in the archieves of Flensburg without a result in this connection.
 
In Uppsala no 'Professor Rist' as I was told.
 
I hope these hints will lead to new ways of research.  
One of you 9 mill. Swedish people should crack this nut...
 
Michael

[May Teistevoll]

Hi Michael
I have with interest followed this Rist discussion, and noticed especially your information about Ferdinand Rist, that he knew much of his Norwegian relatives. I hope it is ok in this discussion to ask about the Norwegian line? If so, I would be very grateful to know the names of these relatives mentioned. Lorentz Rist, who settled in Trondheim, had many children. One of his sons is Knut Rist; Lars and Svend might have been his sons. Lorentz also had a daughter Ingeborg.
 
Kind regards May

[Michael Kohlhaas]

Hello May! I'm sure you know  Slekten Rist: År 1500 til 2000  by John Sandve, Vestågøy, Lofoten.
So I need not to represent this Norwegian Rist-branch.
 
Ferdinand Rist, the supposed author of the family-table from 1790, knew this about that branch:  
He yet described with three or four sentences the situation of Lorentz or Lauritz Rist in Jämtland and that he had married to Else Knudts datter Sørbye; John Sandve has had knowledge of this.
Ferdinand R. only named one son of Lorenz: Knudt, pastor in Saltdalen, south of Bodø. And he named the children of Knut: Jonas, Larss, Susanna Margaretha and Peter.
The research of John Sandve proved a more accurate result, I think.
 
There are only two inaccuracies, we can correct:
John Sandve named Michael Rist and Anna Baur as parents of Caspar Rist sen., married in 1583 in Nördlingen.  But it was a Michael List (!) from Lauffen, who married Anna Baur (Churchbook of Copulation,  church of St. Georg, Nördlingen).  Parents of Caspar Rist sen. (born July 7th 1581 ! Two other children had been born before this date!) had been Melchior Rist and Anna N.N.
Second: Wife of Caspar Rist sen. was Margarethe Ringemuth, died 1658, at the age of 70 years, in Wedel, in the house of her son, pastor Johann Rist; so born 1583.
To John Sandve she came from Courlande, Baltic, and he refered to that family-table from 1790 (by Ferdinand Rist?), in which we can read Margarethe Ringemuth, of noble birth in Curland.
Johann Rist himself wrote, that his mother came from a castle 'Steinbrügge' ( = Steinbrück), near to Braunschweig, in which region many of his relatives (mother's side) would live; no word about nobility in Curland!
We think the father of Margarethe Ringemuth was a kind of administrator, but up to now, after dry days in the archieves of that region, we didn't find this man...
[Why did Ferdinand mention 'Curland'? He was an officer and had connection to the baltic area and connection to a Ringemuth-family?  Yes, indeed, there lived a 'Margarethe von Ringemuth' in Curland in this spoken time - but we do not see any connection to our Margarethe from Steinbrück. But this is a discussion, not to be held here.]
 
 
Back to Caspar Rist jun.
Constantinus, do you see a possibility, that Carl-Oskar Lundström in Piteå could do some more research about Caspar Rist and his whereabouts in that region?
 
And how is this forum operating? I think, there might be many Swedish reseachers at anbytarforum, who have special experience, but do not read this 'English discussions', or am I wrong? Is it wise to start a 'Swedish' discussion concerning this subject?
 
Thank you so much for your interest. Michael
 
(Meddelandet ändrat av Michael66 2009-11-29 23:26)

[Göran Stenberg]

Eine neue Frage auf Schwedisch unter Piteå in Norrbotten werde vielleicht mehr erfolgreich sein.

[May Teistevoll]

Thank you so much for your information, Michael. Pity only one son, Knudt, was mentioned by Ferdinand as a son of Lorentz. Maybe Casper Rist and Lorentz Rist living in Malmø around 1700 are descendants of him.
 
Thank you also for clearifying the correct ancestors of the Rist family.

[Michael Kohlhaas]

May, what do you know about Caspar and Lorentz Rist in Malmø around 1700?  I don't remember, whether John Sandve mentioned them.
When I'd been to Malmø in 2006 they didn't cross my way...
 
Göran, ich wage nicht, Königin Silvia zu fragen, ob sie die Diskussion auf Schwedisch leitet.
But if you ask me, who could start this action, I would have an answer...

[Göran Stenberg]

Unter Piteå ist jetzt eine neue Frage. Mein Urururgrossvater war ?brigens B?rgermeister in dieser Stadt.
 
(Meddelandet ändrat av GSt 2009-11-30 21:59)

[Constantinus Lindfors]

Hi Michael,
 
I actually asked two researchers about Casper Rist. The first one (who is not active on the net and therefore wish to remain anonymous) gave me information about Casper's stay in Piteå and the second one (Carl-Oskar) only looked after him in the book Svenskt silversmide. Honestly, I think we are pretty finished with Piteå, as there are possibly no more information about the Rist family to gain from its sources. We earlier didn't know about the origin and the parents of Casper goldsmith at all, so we want to deeply thank you for the contribution. Someone better take a look into Torneå's court records instead and sadly, I don't know if there is any known township researcher (or specialist in just Torneå) to ask for help. I wish you all the best of luck with the Rist case!
 
Regards / Constantinus
 
 
Edit: I can not find the start year for Torneå's court records anywhere. Does someone else know?
 
(Meddelandet ändrat av Ratengo 2009-11-30 18:27)

[May Teistevoll]

Hi Michael,
 
I have not done any investigations myself. What I know about Rist in Malmø, is found in the database of www.familysearch.org. According to information there, Lorentz Rist/Boell Phalsdtr. had three children baptized in Sankt Petri, Malmø: Johannes (29 Jun 1700), Elne (29 Apr 1703) and Sara (24 Feb 1705). Casper Rist and Ingri Hansdr was married in Sankt Petri, Malmø, on 28 Aug 1704.
 
I also find that Niclaus Rist was married to Soffia Andersdtr on 28 Nov 1697 in Kristianstad, Sweden, and Lars (their son?) was married in Kristianstad 19 May 1725 to Stina Jacobsdtr.

[Michael Kohlhaas]

Constantinus, thank you for your help and so at least some news about Caspar Rist, that he came from Ottensen in North-Germany, reached the township-researcher in Piteå via internet.
 
May, thank you for the Rist-names I will list. Perhaps we once will find connections. When I wrote to some Rist-families some years ago no one could name more than grandparents (some only their parents) - hard to find a good growned Rist-tree in Sweden...
 
As we learned with Maritha her Lars Håkansson Rist was born 1570 - a Rist before Caspar!?
It is not a typical swedish name, isn't it? Any etymological explanation?
Rist in German could be:  
1. old German rist or engl. wrist -> germ. Handgelenk/swed. handled  
2. from Rust/R?ster, a tree -> germ. Ulme/swed. Alm

[Michael Kohlhaas]

I got a hint from a non-registered reader of anbytarforum, that could lead us a step nearer to cracking the nut:
 
Casper Guldsmed (Goldsmith) is listed with wife, maid and “farm hand” in the taxation register of Torneå 1645. He is positioned close to the goldsmith and magistrate Jöns Christoffersson Utter who appears in Torneå 1635. Casper is not present in the register following 1645. Most probably also Jöns Christoffersson was coming from Piteå to Torneå. The very old goldsmith Thorfast Abrahamsson from Piteå was settled in Torneå 1627 and I think that Jöns was working for him.
Coming back to the family Rist it might be an ancestor to Casper who 1675 is coming to Torneå when Johan Rist in the taxation register is stated to be a visitor. The coming years he is a writer at the customs in Torneå 1678-80 and is also sailing on Reval during these years. He seems to have died in the early 1680s when he is followed by his wife Malin who is registered in the village Vuono close to Torneå until 1706.}
 
Thank you, Göran, for your initiative in Piteå and Torneå, though no surprise up to now - but christmas still is coming...

[Constantinus Lindfors]

Hi Michael,
 
You are actually right. According to the taxation registers, Johan Rist and his wife lived in Torneå from 1678 to 1680 and later in Vuono (spelled Wonum in the records) in the parish of Nedertorneå from 1681 to 1688. I haven't noticed any wife Malin in the records, but a maiden named Brita Rist was found in Vuono from 1694. In 1695, it was mentioned that Brita owned a small farm land of 3/32 mantal and that she had a sibling living in her house. However, as I don't have access to taxation registers of 1696 and onwards, I sadly don't know for how long Brita lived in that village.
 
Regards / Constantinus
 
(Meddelandet ändrat av Ratengo 2009-12-21 23:56)