Anders Jonsson Sågmäster

[Martha Anderson]

Two of my great-grandparents emigrated from Ljusnarsberg, and I have many DNA matches from the region. Most of the Finnish DNA I carry comes from that line. (My grandfather, who emigrated from Varmland had Ikoinen ancestors, and there may be a few more Finns on that side.)

I believe that I'm descended from:

Matts Anderson, b. 1590, Gruviset, Norrbärke

Hans Andersson, b. 1610, Gruviset, Norrbärke

The majority of trees I have found list both of them as children of Anders Jonsson Sågmäster (1570 - 1654).

Recently, Geni.com has changed Anders Jonsson Sågmäster's profile. The only child who remains listed is Hemming Andersson. The documents and references attached to both profiles support that Hemming is Anders Jonsson Sågmäster's son. (I'm relying on Google Translate, but the research seems thorough.)

Matts and Hans, along with a number of their other supposed siblings, have been disconnected from Anders Jonsson Sågmäster and assigned to a father named Anders, who has no surname. That leaves me with a dead end on that line.

Does anyone have any information about the parentage of Matts and/or Hans?

Thank you for your help,
[/size]Martha Anderson

[Bengt Grufman]

Hello Martha,
seems that a mistake have been taken place on Geni.com
Hans and Matts are children of Anders Jonsson "Sågmester"
The word "Sågmester" indicates that he was a man good at building houses and other things.
I'm from one of the branches from Anders - family Grufman - with roots at the cottage Grufmanstorp. I have written a book about my family roots, which goes back to Finland. There is a chapter about Anders Jonsson Sågmester.
The book named "Grufmanstorp Sweden" with subtitle "The Croft, People and History" can be found att Amazon.com
Another Swedish version also exist, but just here.


I have not been able to follow my roots in Finland. The grandfather to Anders Jonsson "Sågmester" was named just Anders Finne in Swedish church books (Finne because he was from Finland). Maybe your research will help us further back in Finland.


best regards Bengt

[Jere Markkanen]

Hello Martha and Bengt,

When it comes to Anders Jonsson Sågmästare's / Sågmäster's ancestry, there has been lots of new research on the few past years. There is also several Y-DNA tests from Anders Jonsson Sågmäster's and also of Anders Finne's male line. These both clearly show that Anders Jonsson was not a descendant of Anders Finne. The lines belong in completely different haplogroups, Sågmäster's descendants to a Swedish subgroup of haplogroup I1 (more specifically a group under I1-L1302 and I1-A19901). Then again Anders Finne's descendants are tested to haplogroup N, which is common in Finland but clearly indicates, that Sägmäster was not of Finnish descent.

Furthermore the theory that Anders Jonsson Sågmäster was Anders Finne's grandson seems to be completely based on pure guesses based on patronymic names and the families living on same area. That is always risky and can guess wrongly connected families, as this case shows. Apparently originally Kjell Vadfors had connected Anders Jonsson in his "byalängder" as a grandson to Anders Finne, but he also had marked this connection with a questionmark. As Anders Jonsson's article in WikiTree writes: "The "Byalängder" of Kjell Vadfors is a overview of Norrbärke for the time before church archives, using district court records and tax rolls. There are however not always clear exact what sources that supports a fact, and sometimes there is none. There has also been some direct mistakes found. But still it is a valuable help, even if you need to find original sources and analyze them as well."

So thus the connection of Anders Finne and Anders Jonsson Sågmäster is purely hypothetical and has been proven wrong.

When it comes to Anders Jonsson's other children (other than Hemming Andersson), I have the understanding that only Hemming Andersson can be linked as his son in the records for certainty. Hemming is mentioned as his son on Norrbärkes ting (Norrbärke tingslags häradsrätt (W) AIa:1 (1656-1680) Bild 770 / sid 137 (AID: v222851.b770.s137, NAD: SE/ULA/11110): "Hemming Anderssons fader Anders Sågmester, anno 1611 den 10 Marti hade förvärfvat sigh frihet att få bygga en hytta i Skisse Bäck, som kongl breffet utherviste".

Other people connected as Anders Jonsson Sågmäster's children in various family trees and also Vadfors' Byalängder are also only theories based on the patronymic name "Andersson". Of course some of those children could be his in reality also, but to connect them with certainty more proof would be needed, for instance a Y-DNA test of their direct paternal lines that matched other tested Anders Jonsson Sågmäster's descendants.

Mats Andersson of Grufriset of course seems to have had children whose names resemble names on Hemming Andersson's family, this would indicate a possible connection with the families. But that is of course just a theory based on similar names.

The sources for Anders Jonsson are quite well provided in his WikiTree article, though some mantalslängder links seem to be missing. Anyways one should read that article (which is unfortunately in Swedish), as it shows what is known of Sågmäster for sure: https://wikitree.com/wiki/Jonsson-3446

Best regards,
Jere Markkanen

[Jere Markkanen]

I add few details to my previous answer here to clarify why I have knowledge in the matter.
From Anders Jonsson Sågmäster's line there is three BigY tests taken at FamilyTreeDNA, all descending from his grandson Per Hemmingsson (1620-1698). Two of the tested are descendants to Per Hemmingsson's son Johan Persson (1654-1731) and one to his son Lars Persson Grufman (1669-1774). The shared haplogroup for these three people is I-FT389938 (but all three are also positive for SNP's I- FT387448, I-FT413436, I-FT415221, I-Y44715, I-Y46078, I-Y58294).

Y-DNA tests from Anders Finne's line (which there is apparently two tests) then again go to subgroups of N-BY549.
Anyways, this clearly indicates that there cannot be a paternal lineage connection between Anders Finne's line and Anders Jonsson Sägmäster's line (or at least lines of their tested descendants) - wrong father's and NPE's are always possible, especially if there is not enough parallel and comparison Y-DNA tests to proof lineage all the way back to the first known forefather. If only one DNA test is taken from same lineage, it truly only tells about that particular tested person's line and one must always remember wrong father's are possible - especially if the is no comparison test to prove lineage back to certain point.

In Sågmäster's case the I-FT389938 lineage is proven all the way up to Per Hemmingsson (1620-1698) as the tested a descendants of his two sons, but of course comparisons do not go all the way up to Anders Jonsson Sågmästare - it would be very interesting to get Y-DNA tests from other lines diverting from Hemming Andersson or even these possible lines coming from Mats Andersson and Hans Andersson. If they do match with the Per Hemmingsson's line, of course then we would have proven new descendants to Anders Jonsson Sågmästare and also proven the DNA tested line all the way up to him.

On the other DNA tested branch, Johan Persson's (1654-1731) descendants also share a SNP that is not shared with the Lars Persson Grufman descendant, which is I-Y51418. That mutation has then formed during Johan Persson's lifetime.

Then there is three other tested people descending from Malung - myself included - sharing a common ancestor Karilass Lars Larsson (f. 1798-08-31 Malung, Vallerås and d. 1842-05-27 Malung, Myckelbyn). My line goes to Vallerås in Malung, and it seems that in my line, there has been an NPE (non-paternity event) in the 1700's, when a neighbours man must have been the real father to my line's child. We three Malung tested all also share the mutation I-Y51418, thus meaning the Malung branch descends from Johan Persson too. At least Karilass Lars Larsson (1798-1842) was already a descendant to Johan Persson, but I believe the NPE is a one generation before Karilass Lars.

And alas, Johan Persson actually had a grandson, Göran Ersson Id (b. 1717) who moved to Malung to become a soldier. He seems to move from Grangärde's Morberget to Malung in the late 1730's: Grangärde kyrkoarkiv, Dalarnas län, Husförhörslängder, SE/ULA/12220/A I/3 (1704-1745), bildid: C0012618_00360, sida 343. https://sok.riksarkivet.se/bildvisning/C0012618_00360

And appears in Malung's Vallerås in generalmönsterrullor and mantalslängder:
- Generalmönsterrullor, Arkiv med löpande volymnumrering, SE/KrA/0023/0/105 (1744), bildid: A0028079_00388. https://sok.riksarkivet.se/bildvisning/A0028079_00388
- Generalmönsterrullor, Arkiv med löpande volymnumrering, SE/KrA/0023/0/106 (1748-1751), bildid: A0028080_00344. https://sok.riksarkivet.se/bildvisning/A0028080_00344
- Mantalslängder 1642-1820, Mantalslängder 1642-1820 Kopparbergs län, SE/RA/55203/55203.23/103 (1751), bildid: A0007292_00106, sida 204. https://sok.riksarkivet.se/bildvisning/A0007292_00106

There Göran Ersson, now with soldier name Id (Idh), settled in the village of Vallerås. From the three DNA tests and other evidence it has been gathered, that most likely one of his two sons (Erik or Olof Göransson) was a biological father to my ancestor Saras Lars Larsson Id (1774-1809), father to above mentioned Karilass Lars Larsson (1798-1842). My ancestor also became a soldier in the same rote as Göran Ersson, thus soldier name Id followed him to death too.

Most of important sources for Göran Ersson Id and his children are also listed on their article's in WikiTree: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Ersson-2256

Edit. / It should be added that the two descended from Johan Persson more closely are descended from his son Per Johansson and also share an STR marker variant that appears to have originated in Per Johansson's lifetime. Namely FTY535 which seems to have gone from 13 repetitions to 14 repetitions (this mutation is not shared by the Malung branch, which indicates that it should descend from some other son of Johan Persson).

[Björn Karl Anders Nordin]

Hans Anderssons father is Anders Simonsson 1572-1612
Anders Simonssons father is Simon Tholsson Finne 1530-1600 That is one reason that you and I have Finnish DNA. (I am waiting for a DNA report about this. )

About Matts Andersson 1590-1665 I think very much that he is a son of Anders Jonsson Sågmäster. To prove that or not we need DNA match from living person from a male descendant. And there are very, very many sons and sons to go through. And then finsd a living person who has taken Y-DNA or want to take that.

You and I are DNA-related with an autosomal DNA-connection.
In written material we are related through two sisters. You through Elin Persdotter born 1592 Norrbärke Finnbo and I from Kerstin Persdotter born 1604 Norrbo and died 05 juni 1693, Spjutsbo, Norrbärke fs, Dalarna

Parents are Per Eriksson born 1550 Getbo Norrbärke
Died   1610 Finnbo Norrbärke

His wife: Kerstin Larsdotter born cirka 1565 Finnbo, Norrbärke fs, Dalarna
Died 1632-07-22 By, Norrbärke

When they are born it is not exact.

[Stefan Jernberg]

Bortsett från Mats patronymikon, vilka belägg eller indicier har du som stöder Anders Jonsson som fader till Mats?


Med vänliga hälsningar
Stefan Jernberg, Säter

[Björn Karl Anders Nordin]

Bara indicier som är en arbetshypotes. Så ta det inte så allvarligt.
 
Plats, födelsedatum, inte så många Anders-ar som finns att tillgå, Anders Simonsson har barnen födda vid ett annat årtionde. En son till Anders Simonsson - Erik Andersson 1605-1673 gifter sig med  Marina Andersdotter (dotter till Sågmäster). Det finns inget syskongifte eller ens alltför nära släktgifte vid denna tid och även långt framöver.

Jag härstammar från Anders Finne (Y-DNA rakt led). Jag härstammar från Sågmäster genom Stor-Hemming-genom Grufman. Jag härstammar från Simon Tholsson Finne. Jag härstammar från Elin Andersdotter (dotter till Sågmäster), dotterskapet inte bekräftat med skriftlig dokumentation utan bara genom ledet från henne till mig. + en del andra kopplingar till släkt och relationer. Jag härstammar från Hans Andersson liksom Martha.

Som sagt. Det är bara en arbetshypotes, utifrån sannolikhet där jag tar bort andra möjliga kopplingar, jag utgår från. Jag brukar för det mesta ha rätt i mina hypoteser. Men självklart kan jag ha fel. Man för använda de verktyg som finns till buds. Varje barn har ju två föräldrar. De uppstår inte bara hur som helst. Föräldrarna kan vara fel mot vad man tror eller så är de rätt.

[Stefan Jernberg]

Jag förstår,
problemet, eller ett av många är ju att vi dels inte känner till när Mats är född? Vi vet inte om han kommer från Gruvriset eller ens om han är infödd i socknen.
Med vänliga hälsningar
Stefan Jernberg, Säter

[Björn Karl Anders Nordin]

Det är stora problem när de skriftliga källorna inte finns.
Men ibland har man lite tur. Jag lägger dock inte ner så mycket mer tid på detta.

För några år sedan dök det upp en "Mats" i Bergslagen. Han köpte ett hemman och varifrån han kom fanns ingen uppgift.

Jag hade tidigare gjort en triangulering med ett par andra av mina DNA-matcher. Där dyker det upp en "Mats". Från adeln. Att komma från ingenstans och kunna köpa ett helt hemman är få förundrat.

Det finns åtskilliga adelssläkter som skickade sina söner till Bergslagen för att ta del av rikedomarna. Det var inte bara kungen som visste att rikedomar fanns att hämta. Lågadel och de av dessa som inte fick plats på sina gårdar och inte kunde försörja sig drog till Bergslagen. De blev en del av folkhavet.

Digerdödens flera härjningar 1350-1450 drabbade speciellt lågadeln väldigt hårt. Fanns inga arrendebönder och torpare som kunde försörja dom. De måste finna sig ny försörjning. Har man någon liten koppling in i den svenska adeln, som många liksom jag har, verifierat med skriftliga källor och med DNA, så öppnar sig en ny värld att grotta ner sig i om man ligger åt släktforskningens sökeri. När husförhörsböckerna ej längre finns att tillgå så kan man gå vidare  i adelns noga nedtecknade släktförhållanden. Makt, ekonomi och släkt och allianser var ytterligt viktiga för den delen av befolkningen.

Vikingatidens storbönder blev adel. Odalbönder, som kunde sin släkts härkomst 4-5 generationer bakåt i tiden blev viktigast på tingen och blev garanterade att äga sin mark. Så växte adeln fram. Rika söker rika. Och de framgångsrikaste birkarlarna och båttranportörerna lierade sig med de andra.

Själv har jag hittat ett led från min "lågadliga" härstamning som etablerade sig i Bergslagen. Det blir ett led jag får följa upp i en framtid.

Jag fokuserar numera på att se hur jag är släkt med de jag får DNA-match med. Utifrån den folkmängd som fanns i Bergslagen på 1400-talet och en bit in på 1500-talet så tycks för mig som vi är släkt med de allra flesta som har rötter i Bergslagen. Det visar sig att jag är 5-männing och 12-männing med samma DNA-match och liknande i alla möjliga konstellationer.

Så jag slutar härmed denna diskussion om de personer som nämnts i den här tråden.

Med vänligaste hälsningar

Anders Nordin

[Martha Anderson]

Thank you all for your responses. At least my query sparked a lively discussion. I received other messages on Geni. I hope the parentage of Matts and Hans and others can be settled sometime in the future. I do not have any Y-DNA to contribute, and neither do my male cousins because we are descended from female lines.


I have been tested through 23andme, FTDNA, and Ancestry, and have uploaded my DNA to myheritage and GED Match. The clusters myheritage provides show that a large proportion of my DNA matches comes from the region in and around Ljusnarsberg. A number of my matches have Grufmans in their trees, and I'm related to two people named Grufman on FTDNA (suggested as fourth cousins). I hope that, in time, analysis of the DNA we share will lead to a better understanding of our heritage.


Martha G. Anderson

[Bengt Grufman]

Hello Jere,
I'm no DNA expert and therefor hope you will answer following:


You are saying that the relationship between Anders Finne and Anders Jonson Sågmester is proven to be false based on a Y-DNA result from Anders Finne line.
My question:
How can it ever exist a DNA test from Anders Finne when it's not possible to for sure identify his children and grandchildren ?
Please can you present more facts about that DNA test and sources for relations to Anders Finne.


As far as I understand the guess about relations to Anders Jonson Sågmester is following:
In older times it was common that eldest son/child took over the home when parents died. Byalängder specifies owners of places different periods. From that comes the supposed relations, which I believe quite truly.


rgds Bengt

[Jere Markkanen]

As in all cases of genetic genealogy, the DNA has been tested from living descendants of a certain individual or individuals. In this case there exists two DNA tests from two Y-DNA tests from the line on Joen (Jon) Andersson from Starbo, Norrbärke, who has been assumed as a son to Anders Finne. These two tests are both descentants of his son Nils Jonsson's through Nils Jonsson grandson's grandson's grandson Per Hansson (f. 1762). As said, both of these tests match each other and thus prove they are at least same lineage all the way from Per Hansson. Both tests are also of haplogroup N, which is a common haplogroup in Finland and would thus be indirect proof that the lineage comes from this man called "Anders Finne". For certain this lineage cannot be proven further than that, of course, but at least we can surely say it is not a match with Anders Jonsson Sågmästare's line which has been DNA tested to completely different haplogroup I1.

Of course, it would be beneficial for the research to get another comparison DNA test, from possible lines descending or possibly descending from Anders Finne. We have been trying to get a test from the line of Olof Jonsson from Starbo (this line later settled in Gessberg) and if we manage to get a test person to take Y-DNA test, we should be able to see is he also a match to these two men tested previously and do they all share same haplogroup N. Haplogroups of course can be "dealt" in to more specific sub-groups with the more exact mutations that can be found in Y chromosome.

To obtain the most specific information, we of course need more DNA tests and comparisons from lines that divert from further away. But in general we can at least say, that the lineages now tested do not give any supporting evidence, that Anders Finne would have been Anders Jonsson Sågmäster's father - also because the I1 haplogroup tested from Sågmäster lineage is rather common in Sweden and is (at least originally) of Scandinavian origin. Of course that does not rule out that the line has lived for some generations in Finland or Russia, but it does not directly support any theory of the link between Anders Finne and Anders Jonsson Sågmäster.

Did this answer your question well enough?

[Bengt Grufman]

Thanks for answer Jere,
Which are the sources giving descendants to Joen ?

[Bengt Grufman]

Hi Jere,
it seems you are unable to answer about sources for ancestors to those persons with taken DNA that you mean shows that "Sågmester" not is related to Anders Finne and not even are of Finnish background.
In your earlier answer you asked if I was satisfied with your answer. The simple answer is NO.
"I don't believe it, until I see it".
That the haplogroup is common in Finland is absolutely no proof of relation to Anders Finne.
Keep in mind that there were many Finnish persons who settled in that area.


The most complete study of Finnish establishment I have seen is "Skogsfinnar i Smedjebackens kommun" by Christina Norlander. It's a 90 page research report.
There she covers most settlements. About Anders Finne in Starbo her resolution is not in line with your conclusion.
I suggest to trust on her until I see something better, even if one of her many sources are "byalängderna".


By the way, In Norrbärke Dombok Anno 1735 we read:
§169. Rannsakning över Torp under Wäster Silfberget.
6. Joens Torp. 1/4 dehl, oboerna Jonas Johansson och Matts Johansson, hvilka med hvar anne oskylte äro, och Jons farfaders fader, Stor Hemming, af Finsk eller Rysk extraction, upptagit torpet uti Konung Carl IX tidh, sedan han som Byggmestare kommit till Silfgrufvan.


Stor-Hemming is known to be a son of Anders Jonsson Sågmester. Thus, the conclusion must be that Anders Jonsson Sågmester is of Finnish background - opposite to what you say.


My own DNA line is almost straight all the way except one "mistake". One Grufman daughter got a son with unknown father. That son kept the Grufman name further on. That's why I only have a mtDNA that shows 87% Scandinavia, 7% Finland, 5% Baltic.


Until we find trustable DNA analysis we have to live with what's most truly.


best regards
Bengt

[Bengt Grufman]

I wrote mtDNA about me. It should of course be Autosomal DNA.
Bengt

[Martha Anderson]

This may be a bit off-topic. Two of my great-grandparents were from Ljusarsberg. My uncle tested 35.3% Finnish, which largely comes come from that side of our family. (I got 14.1% Finniah on 23andme, but higher estimates elsewhere.) Whether any of this comes from Anders Finne, I do not know, but there were obviously a number of other Finns in our line.


My uncle's mtDNA is U8a1a. Is this common in the area (and/or Finland)? It would be wonderful to find a match for her among people still living in the area.


Martha