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Författare Ämne: Need help with 1716 and 1717 muster roll  (läst 248 gånger)

2020-07-22, 21:54
läst 248 gånger

Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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Attached is a the 1716 GMR for Måns Andersson Weckman/Beckman.  (Måns is listed on the Centrala Soldatregistret with both of these names): http://soldat.elektronikhuset.it/dbrecord.sv.aspx?id=28893

1716 GMR
Generalmönsterrullor--Kronobergs-regemente-G-329a-1716-Image-273
https://app.arkivdigital.se/volume/v46666?image=273

I can understand the easier things, such as:
Rote: Tommaryd
Name:  Corp Måns Andersson (B)eckman
Soldier Nr: 94
Age: 30
Years in Service: 7
Province: Smaland

It looks like there are two additional columns: one describing the equipment he was provided and the other contains general notes. Only the first of these is filled in.

Was he an infantryman?  Does this describe the equipment he received/had? 

Just looking at the two records you can see where the Weckman/Beckman came from.

1716 GMR
Generalmönsterrullor--Kronobergs-regemente-G-330-1717-Image-307
https://app.arkivdigital.se/volume/v46668?image=307

It follows the same format as previous year but, again, I can understand the easier things, such as:
Rote: Tommaryd
Name:  Corp Måns Andersson Weckman
Soldier Nr: 93 (this changed from 94 the previous year)
Age: 31
Years in Service: 8
Province: Smaland

The notes seem again to mention his equipment but I cannot tell if there is anything else.

I have followed Måns Andersson from Torpa parish to Hinneryd and subsequently back to Torpa.  The 1717-1722 Torpa household records noted that he moved to Hinneryd parish. I have followed him in the tax records in those places from 1717 to 1744 when his farm was eventually taken over by his son-in-law.  :)  Great fun!  This one is for sure my soldier!

Now I'm hoping to learn about his military service.  Any help from anyone who can help me to understand more about his life in the military would be really appreciated. 

Thank you so much,

Vicki Cihla






2020-07-22, 23:03
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Utloggad Ulf Svensson

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Got timed out so the reply was lost >:(
The columns are, in general:
Notations from last GMR              New notations

So it looks a bit odd with almost the same note in the left column.


Yes, Kronobergs regemente was an infantry regiment and you are correct about the note. It desribes the equipment he got.
I think his regiment have seen battle in todays Germany and that could be the reason for getting new equipment.

The 'great nordic war', as it is called in Sweden, was going on from 1700 to 1721. Swedens was fighting Russia, Poland, Denmark and Saxony. After the loss at Poltava, 1709, in Russia everything started going backwards.
The main army was wiped out and new one was set up. This was when Måns was recruited.
After the war Sweden lost almost all territories south and east of the Baltic sea.
This was out of my head but maybe you can find some papers or articles in english about the war Måns was fighting.

2020-07-22, 23:27
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Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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Thank you so much!

I will definitely be researching that. 

Does either record indicate that he fought? 

I have more of his GMR records but I wanted to see what I can learn from the first two so I don't keep asking the same thing!   :) 

Thanks again,

Vicki Cihla

2020-07-23, 00:25
Svar #3

Utloggad Ulf Svensson

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There is nothing mentioned about him participaiting in battles in these two rolls. But he was promoted so he must have done something.

If you can find his promotion to corpral it might say something.
The "new" Kronobergs regemente was in action for the first time in the battle of Helsingborg, against the danes, Feb 28 1710. It was a victory so he might have got his promotion there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Helsingborg

2020-07-23, 00:51
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Utloggad Ulf Svensson

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Found something for you to look at while I am sleeping. ;)

In 1710 GMR. Check #104 at Södra Sunnerbo kompani. Not exactly the history of "your" Måns.

"Born in Småland, Sunnerbo härad and Hinneryd parish.
?? soldier when regiment was established 1709.
20 years old. Can read book.

https://sok.riksarkivet.se/bildvisning/A0028302_00328


In 1713 GMR #104 has a new man and Måns appears as corpral #94

2020-07-23, 01:06
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Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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Wow!  That is very interesting!  Thank you for the interesting link you send (and in English too!)  Very helpful!   :)

So - very interesting - will check out what you just sent...


He began his military service in 1710, I don't know what date. 

The first tax record I found for him was in 1717, he was already listed as Corporal Måns.

The same is true for the GMR, he was not listed yet in 1710 - it says soldier 94 (Tommaryd) is vacant, the 1713 record had no comments for him at all.  It wasn't until 1716 and 1717 that I started to find anything written up about him.  So I have no idea when he would have been promoted and why.  Is there anywhere I could look for that if it is not listed on the GMR?

I will look closer at the other GMR records I have for him and see if there's anything that gives me a clue - maybe the month/day he started, etc.

Actually, I just looked this GMR for 1718, can you tell me what that means:

Generalmönsterrullor--Kronobergs-regemente-G-331-1718-Image-206-Page-196
https://app.arkivdigital.se/volume/v46669?image=206&page=166

Thanks so much,

2020-07-23, 01:25
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Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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Ok, so that is very interesting - 104 is now 94? 

I don't know where he was born - I have no birth record for him.  He was not living in Torpa in 1710 or 1715.   I know he lived in Torpa in 1717 (as corporal), then moved to Hinneryd in the 1720's and then moved back to Torpa where he used the name Corporal Weckman in 1726, Corporal Måns Wekman in 1728 and then went back to using the name Måns Andersson starting in 1729, once he was out of the military.

So, I'll check it out!

Thanks for your help,

Vicki Cihla


2020-07-23, 08:29
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Utloggad Ulf Svensson

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My theory:


He was enlisted in 1709, when the regiment was reorganized, as private 104.


This is in the 1710 GMR. The roll is from summer 1710, after the battle of Helsingborg.


In the time between GMR 1710 and 1713 Måns is promoted and transported to #94. A new man is installed at #104.


There are still holes to fill to make the theory solid.


The reason foe changing the number is that 104 is set-up for a private. The 'rote' is the constant in the system. The man and the farmers providing the 'rote' changed over time.
I assume that the corpral-croft was a better one.

2020-07-23, 14:17
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Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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Thanks for this!  That is how it seems to me also.  I have not, so far, been able to figure out where he was born.  Even though the Centrala Soldatregistret listed his service beginning in 1710, 1709 makes more sense according to the years of service recorded on each GMR.

There is definitely a link between Torpa and Hinneryd for this family.  The daughter of Måns, Swenborg born ca. 1712, married a man (Johan Nilsson) from Hinneryd in 1733.  The Torpa marriage record states that Johan Nilsson from Wänneböke (Hinneryd) married Swenborg Månsdotter from Balkeryd (Torpa).   Swenborg's death in 1762 states her age at 50, putting her birth year ca. 1712.  I have not been able to find her birth record.

But, there are household records available for 1717-1722 in Torpa where I found the following records:

Torpa-G-AI-1-1717-1722-Image-85-Page-149
https://app.arkivdigital.se/volume/v19646?image=85 (lists Måns Weckman, wife Anna, daughter Swenborg and son Jöns)

Torpa-G-AI-1-1717-1722-Image-86-Page-151
https://app.arkivdigital.se/volume/v19646?image=86  (lists Corp Måns, wife Annika, and daughter Swenborg - moved to Hinneryd

Hinneryd-G-AI-1-1717-1723-Image-116-Page-110
https://app.arkivdigital.se/volume/v18565?image=116 - (lists Corp Måns Weckman and wife (unnamed) for the last couple years of that household record.

There are no household records immediately following the 1717-1722 timeframe for either Torpa or Hinneryd.

The tax records I have summarized as follows, showing how his name is listed:

1710     Balkeryd, Torpa     Not listed
1715     Balkeryd, Torpa     Widow Ingrid
1717     Balkeryd, Torpa     Corporal Måns
1718     Balkeryd, Torpa     Corporal Måns
1719     Balkeryd, Torpa     Corp Måns Weck??? (hard to read)
1723     Not in Balkeryd, Torpa anymore  - household records said he moved to Hinneryd
1724     Skrubberyd, Hinneryd     Corp Måns Wäcken
1725     Skrubberyd, Hinneryd     Corporal Weckman
1726     Not there - moved back to Torpa
1726     Balkeryd, Torpa     Corporal Weckman
1727     Balkeryd, Torpa     He is not listed - see tax record for note (not yet explained - not sure what it means)
1728     Balkeryd, Torpa     Corporal Måns Wekman - see tax record for note: "wid Regementet. At the regiment."
1729     Balkeryd, Torpa     Måns (he is no longer in military)
1730     Balkeryd, Torpa     Måns and daughter Swenborg is listed also!
1731     Balkeryd, Torpa    Måns Andersson and daughter Swenborg
1732     Balkeryd, Torpa     Måns and Swenborg - Måns is listed as "fattig" (poor)
1733     Balkeryd, Torpa     Måns and daughter Swenborg
1734     Balkeryd, Torpa     Måns and son Jöns
1735     Balkeryd, Torpa     Måns
1736     Balkeryd, Torpa     Måns
1737     Balkeryd, Torpa     Måns
1738     Balkeryd, Torpa     Måns
1739     Balkeryd, Torpa     *Johan & Måns
1740     Balkeryd, Torpa     *Johan
1744     Balkeryd, Torpa     Johan Nilsson (this is his son-in-law, married to Swenborg - Johan listed in 1739 & 1740 may be same

That is what I know so far and why I think this soldier is the father of Swenborg Månsdotter.

What do you think?

I would appreciate anyone's input who wishes to comment!

Thanks for any further help or advice/correction of my understanding,

Vicki Cihla






2020-07-23, 14:45
Svar #9

Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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These are the other GMR records I found and they all appear to tell more of the story:

1718 GMR (nr 507) for Corporal Måns Andersson Weckman - I don't understand who the other Måns Andersson is, why he is listed, or the annotation written on this record.
Generalmönsterrullor--Kronobergs-regemente-G-331-1718-Image-206-Page-196
https://app.arkivdigital.se/volume/v46669?image=206&page=166

1721 GMR (nr 507) for Corporal Måns Andersson Weckman - this record appears to have more information about his equipment
https://app.arkivdigital.se/volume/v46671?image=184
Generalmönsterrullor--Kronobergs-regemente-G-333-1721-Image-184
https://app.arkivdigital.se/volume/v46671?image=184
 
1728 GMR (nr 781) Corporal Måns Andersson Weckman - this is his final GMR record, talks about his equipment and maybe? about his exit from military service?
Generalmönsterrullor--Kronobergs-regemente-G-333a-1728-Image-408
https://app.arkivdigital.se/volume/v46672a?image=408

His soldier number has kept changing and not always sure why. 

If anyone is willing to help shed some light on these years, I would be very grateful.

Thank you for your time and help with this,

Vicki Cihla



2020-07-23, 15:42
Svar #10

Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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In reviewing my notes, I had also found a Måns Andersson in 1710 as soldier number 28 - looks like he was also from Smaland and there are notes included - maybe he was the one who became the corporal #94?  I can't read the name of the rote he belonged to.


Generalmönsterrullor--Kronobergs-regemente-G-327-1710-Image-302-Page-296.jpg
https://app.arkivdigital.se/volume/v46664?image=302&page=286

Thanks for any help with this,

Vicki Cihla

2020-07-23, 15:50
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Utloggad Ulf Svensson

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This is for message 14:45 CET

It is the number on regiment level that is changing. The did some structural changes this period. The 'rote' is still the same.
I agree with you about the 1718 GMR. Who is that new Måns?

The annotation has a reference to solider 47. Lijka som/same as #47.
On my lunch break I found a 1711 roll. I haven't had time to look into that yet.

https://sok.riksarkivet.se/bildvisning/A0054654_00066
In 1728 he is dismissed, åldrig och svag/old and weak.

I will look into it more when I get home if noone else reply.

15:42 CET

I think the rote is Hyllta.

Is Gutteryd a place he might come from?

2020-07-23, 16:23
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Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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Thanks so much!  I'll see what more I can figure out based on what you just sent and look forward to hearing more from you and/or anyone else who can help!

Thanks again,

Vicki Cihla

2020-07-23, 17:59
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Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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I moved part of the question I posted on: 2020-07-23, 14:45 to a separate post to make it easier for someone to respond to the specific question I have regarding the listing of 2 names for the 1718 GMR entry nr. 507/93 for Corporal Måns Andersson Weckman where the second name listed is also Måns Andersson.

Thank you,

Vicki Cihla

2020-07-23, 22:20
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Since the numbering is different in the 1711 roll I use the name of the rote.

In the 1711 GMR Måns Andersson at Hylta rote is still there.
Språxhult rote have a new man, Per Andersson Tåman, after Måns Andersson and a new corporal in Tommaryd is Måns Andersson after Nils Olofsson in Högahylta who was dismissed in 1710 GMR.

2020-07-23, 22:56
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Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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the 1711 GMR is saying that:

1. Per Andersson Tåman replaced a Måns Andersson #104 at Språxhult rote.
2. Måns Andersson (previously at Språxhult rote above) replaced the dismissed Nils Olofsson in Högahylta as the new corporal at Tommaryd.
3. Måns Andersson at Hylta rote is still in Hylta - no change.  He was #28 I asked about, correct?  (So we know, now, that this is not the same man as Corporal Måns Andersson Weckman)

Do I understand this correctly?  Does this prove that #104 Måns Andersson #104 at Språxhult rote is where the Måns Andersson the soldier began his military service and from there was promoted to corporal at Tommaryd?

Where did you find the 1711 GMR?  I didn't see it anywhere.  :)

Very interesting information - hope I understand it correctly!  Please correct me if I'm wrong on this!

Thanks so much!

Vicki Cihla 

2020-07-23, 23:28
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Utloggad Ulf Svensson

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Under the drop down 'Select Extended Search' I select 'Army Rolls'
In this case I refined the search by narrowing the years to 1710-1715 and 'Free text' kronobergs

2020-07-23, 23:39
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Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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Great!  I'll take a look - thanks for this!

Vicki Cihla

2020-07-23, 23:54
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Utloggad Ulf Svensson

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It is not 100% sure that it is the same Måns that leaves Språxhult to become a corporal in Tommaryd. I would say that it is very likely since age and yars in service are correct. It's a strong case, the time line looks OK.

Have you seen him in Språxhult tax records?

2020-07-24, 00:13
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Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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I started looking through a few tax records but have not found him yet - I'm going to check all the records for Språxhult around that time - from about 1700 to 1712 more closely. 

Right now I'm on the 1711 GMR on Riksarkivet and am not sure how to find the correct #94 but I'll find it....

Thanks for your ongoing help with this.  I feel comfortable that the information I have found for him and his family, once he has become a corporal, all fits nicely into place.  But it would be really nice to figure out where he was born or originally from.   

Thanks again,

Vicki Cihla




2020-07-24, 08:22
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Utloggad Ulf Svensson

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The numbers in 1711 roll are different. That's why I used the name of the rote. But they were not far from the earlier numbers. I think the corporal was 87.

2020-07-24, 13:37
Svar #21

Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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Thanks alot!  I could not find anything for Måns at Språxhult in the tax rolls.  It is difficult to say for certain. 

Being able to go back this far using the tax rolls and GMR records is really incredible.  I'm very grateful for all the help!  As I study each family unit, it is inevitable that I eventually run out of absolute proof but I'm documenting everything so that I can build on it if future information becomes available.  Besides, I really enjoy the learning and challenge of it but always aware of how indispensible the help and advice I receive at this forum is to my continued learning and discovery.

Thanks for all the help from everyone,

Vicki Cihla


 

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