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Författare Ämne: Need help with Estate Inventory  (läst 689 gånger)

2020-03-16, 21:44
läst 689 gånger

Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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Can anyone tell me if I’m on the right track with starting a translation of the attached estate inventory?  It is very difficult to read, especially the last part of it.  Any help with letters or words would be helpful. I have a dictionary but I cannot tell what some of the letters/words are.  Any help would be very much appreciated – this is my first attempt at an estate inventory and it appears to be very interesting. 

I’m also trying to understand if this inventory was taken due to the death of both the husband and wife in 1789?  And where does his inventory end?  It looks like it is several pages long, not sure.   For now though, I’m just working on the first paragraph. 

Sunnerbo-häradsrätt-G-FII-10-1790-1791-Image-216-Page-337

Oct 1789 ? 20 April and June 1789

? man and wife ?? died of/at? They were the husband Per Larsson and his wife Kirstin Persdotter in Marsiö Storgård  who left behind 5 young heirs.  ? Son Ollof Persson was of age to inherit, daughter Sara 25 years old, son Lars, 19 years old, son Bengt, 17 years old, son Jöns, 14 years old, ????????? uncle (father’s brother) Anders Larsson in Norrtorpa S? and old man Per Ollofsson in Miäla who is mother’s father ? ? inheritance at Rad..

Thanks so much for any help,

Vicki Cihla

https://app.arkivdigital.se/volume/v76215?image=216




2020-03-16, 23:02
Svar #1

Utloggad Kalle Birgersson

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I think that one was somewhat harder to read than normal, and a dictionary will not be much help translating those old words. And in this inventory the spelling is even further from modern swedish than normal. So you did pretty good reading the start. Here's what I think is written:

Citera
Åhr 1789 20 aprill och 2 junij 1789 war man och hustru bäg med döden afledene, som war manen Per Larsson och hustruen Kirstin Persdotter i Marsiöö storegl: och lämnat eftter sig 5 barn, älsta sonen Ollof Persson myndig, dotter Sara 25 åhr sonen Lars 19 åhr sonen Bent(?) 17: sonen Jöns 14 åhr. at bavacka de omyndigas rätt war till städes farbroderen, Anders Larsson i Nortorpa söndregl: och gamla manen Per Ollofsson i Miella, har förmantes samterlige aruingarna at redeligen upgifua ägendomen sådan den befans ued dösfalet, och kuna med ed styrcka, om så påfoderas skulle, egendomen företocks som föllier nemerligen...
And you are right, both husband and wife was dead. It all ends at page 342, they had a lot of stuff.

If you need help to translate the text, please tell me but I think the hardest part is to deciphre the old hand writing.

2020-03-16, 23:16
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Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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Thank you so much!  I will work on the translating and let you know if I need more help!  Yes, the handwriting is really a challenge!

I really appreciate this! 

Vicki Cihla

2020-03-17, 01:57
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Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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I'm not clear about the reference to the unpopular/unjust? war - was that related to the uncle, Anders Larsson? or do I have that all wrong?  Also the note about the "old man Per Ollofsson" - I am not sure if they are talking about the valuation of the property or giving up/surrendering property.  Can you clarify what they are saying?

Also, a question about the dates at the top - are they they 2 approximate death dates of the parents Per Larsson and Kristin Persdotter?  Did they both die at Marsio?   I was hoping to clarify whether I had the correct death records for these 2 people.  I found Kirstin's (Annerstad-G-CI-2-1751-1814-Image-206-Page-405) which lists her as a widow.  I could not find a death record for her husband in the same year in Marsio, Annerstad.   I found a death record that fit his age in Torpa (Torpa-G-C-3-1773-1860-Image-225-Page-439 ), but it was in October 1789 which is after, not before, his wife's death.  There was a lot movement in the family between Torpa and Annerstad but have always been unsure because of the "widow" designation on her death record.  It looks to me like the death record for Kirstin is correct but not for her husband - but I've searched and searched for his death record in Annerstad but could find none for him there.   Any thoughts on how I could confirm which if either is correct? 

Thanks for your help!

Vicki Cihla

I

2020-03-17, 04:29
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Utloggad Leif Lundkvist

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Translation of the beginning of the inventory:
Year 1789 the 20 April and the 2 June were man and wife both dead, ... in Marsjö Storegård ...
You find them in Annerstad (G) AI:3 (1784-1805) Bild 95 / sid 171 (AID: v18250.b95.s171, NAD: SE/VALA/00015).


The death records (you have the right page) say that Pär Larsson died 9 April, buried 18 same month, 65 years old (top of your picture for Kirstin!) and for Kirstin it only states that she died in May, no day, and that she were buried 9 June, 58 years old. Thus death records and inventory don't agree about the dates, I don't know which is right but it should be the death record.


Anders Larsson and Per Olofsson were the two persons that reported the belongings in the inventory on behalf of the heirs and took an oath that it was correct, might be just neighbours or related, the inventory don't say anything about that.

2020-03-17, 12:55
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Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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Thank you so much for this! This makes sense now that I can see it.  Depending on the situation a word can have more than one meaning so I was finding it very confusing. 

 I was not able to read the name Pår Larsson (nr 10) on the death record after looking at it numerous times, but I knew something wasn't right with the death record I had for him.  So I am really appreciative of your help with this.   I have now corrected my records.  Regarding Anders Larsson, I think that he was the children's uncle (their father's brother).  And I'm wondering if the "old man" Per Ollofsson might be the children's maternal grandfather - (their mother's father)?  It would make sense that an uncle and grandparent might have been the ones involved in the inventory.  I will see if I can find anything on that.

I will continue trying to translate the rest of this so may need more help!  It is very, very interesting!

Thanks so much for all the kind help with this!!  It is an enormous encouragement to continue!

Vicki Cihla

 

2020-03-17, 13:36
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Utloggad Kalle Birgersson

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Regarding Anders Larsson, I think that he was the children's uncle (their father's brother).  And I'm wondering if the "old man" Per Ollofsson might be the children's maternal grandfather - (their mother's father)?  It would make sense that an uncle and grandparent might have been the ones involved in the inventory.  I will see if I can find anything on that.
Anders Larsson was their uncle, "farbroderen" can't mean anything else. And the theory about old man Per Olofsson being the maternal grandfather makes lots of sense. If possible the trustees should be family and since there was an uncle available he would probably represent all of the children if there was no more relatives to do the job. So Per Olofsson should be a relative and a grandparent still going would be perfect. And with Anders Larsson coming from the husbands side, Per Olofsson coming from the wife's is even better. But of course exceptions happends all the time...

2020-03-17, 14:51
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Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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Thank you for your thoughts on this!  I am going to research that to see if I can learn more about the family.  I'll also be back to work on more of the estate inventory!

Thanks so much,

Vicki Cihla

2020-03-17, 16:57
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Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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The household records for Per Larsson and Kristin Persdotter give 2 different birth years for Kristin - 1728 and 1731.  I checked the birth records in and around those dates and could only find one in Annerstad and it was for 1731. However, that birth record lists her father as Pehr Jönsson if I'm reading it correctly.  I think it is the correct birth record for her - her name is spelled differently than usual (Chirstin) - but I'd like your thoughts.  Still, it leaves me wondering who the "old man" Per Ollofsson might be, especially since Per Larsson and Kristin Persdotter had sons named both Olof and Jöns (who was the last son/child).  Also, was it typical to refer to someone as  "old man" which infers that it would be like a grandparent or higher?  Or, in the case of a grandparent would they specifically refer to them as such - mother's father or father's father?

Annerstad-G-CI-1-1708-1750-Image-83-Page-161

Any help would be appreciated,

Vicki Cihla

2020-03-17, 18:05
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Utloggad Kalle Birgersson

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Seems like Per Olofsson wasn't that old anyway. Born in 1729 ha couldn't be the father to Kristin. At 60 years old I don't really see why he would be called "old man" though, when the dead couple and the uncle was about the same age. Maybe there was another Per Olofsson i Mjäla? (Miella/Miäla etc.) 


https://sok.riksarkivet.se/bildvisning/C0025918_00024#?c=&m=&s=&cv=23&xywh=-1081%2C31%2C5229%2C2479

2020-03-17, 20:04
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Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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Thank you for that!  You are right. So, he probably was a neighbor or good friend of the family.  I believe that Pehr Jönsson is her father but have not been able to find a household record of the family  - there is a gap in the available household exam records that would include her as a child.

I have not found a birth record in Annerstad for Per Larsson b. 1723  - his birthplace is not listed on the household records I have nor does it show on the marriage record. Since his father's brother is from Nortorpa - I will check for it in Torpa.   

Then, I'll get back to the estate inventory. 

Thanks so much,

Vicki Cihla

2020-03-17, 20:26
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Utloggad Kalle Birgersson

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I have not found a birth record in Annerstad for Per Larsson b. 1723  - his birthplace is not listed on the household records I have nor does it show on the marriage record. Since his father's brother is from Nortorpa - I will check for it in Torpa.   
Just a note - Anders Larsson in Nordtorpa was not Per Larsson's uncle, but uncle to his children. In other words, they were brothers.

2020-03-17, 20:48
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Utloggad Kalle Birgersson

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OK, Anders Larsson in Nortorpa södergård. He died 18 may 1792, 60 years old. Probably the child born 30 july 1731 - in Miäla! The two farms are next to each other. And it means old man Per Olofsson is a neigbour and probably a childhood friend to the brothers.
There is no more information about the parents than the name Lars in the birth notice.

https://sok.riksarkivet.se/bildvisning/C0075088_00094#?c=&m=&s=&cv=93&xywh=2947%2C2120%2C3491%2C1913

2020-03-17, 20:57
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Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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Oh, wow, thank you so much for this!  I'll get back to work on the estate inventory, I am hoping to compare the writing to what you wrote earlier for me to decipher the handwriting. 

Thanks again!

Vicki Cihla

2020-03-17, 21:17
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Utloggad Kalle Birgersson

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Per Larsson was born 26 January 1725, in Miäla. Father Lars, no more information.

https://sok.riksarkivet.se/bildvisning/C0075088_00088#?c=&m=&s=&cv=87&xywh=173%2C390%2C3832%2C2100

In the tax records (mantalslängd) we can see that his last name was Persson. And that is to be expected, Lars Persson's first son will be named Per Larsson, that is how they often did it back then. We can also see that Lars Persson and his wife was first representing the farm in the taxrecords for 1729, replacing a Per Nilsson. Perhaps he was the father of Lars Persson, you will see further on in your research.



2020-03-17, 22:09
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Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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Thank you very much!  I had only just reached 1725 checking for his birth record,  trying very hard not to miss it!  I had only found 2 Pehr's thus far and neither from Miäla!   

You are amazing!  Thank you so much for your help with this.  I'm unfamiliar yet with the tax records so am trying to process what you told me!  :)

It so interesting to learn all of this.

I can't thank you enough!

Vicki Cihla

2020-03-17, 23:09
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Utloggad Kalle Birgersson

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In Arkiv Digital you can go to "Registersökning" and chose "Innehållsförteckning mantalslängder". Chose year and parish, in this case Torpa. Maybe also "Län", Kronoberg, since there are several Torpa around the country. And now you have a list of all households in Torpa parish. You will see only the name of the farm and normally one name representing the family, so no children and so on. What you see more varies from place to place and between years. Now Torpa is a little special in this era but normally you can see how many tax payers every family has, if someone is too sick to work, too old and so on. And those tax records goes back all the way to the 1640's so very useful.

2020-03-18, 00:22
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Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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I am having trouble following your instructions.   :(   To access records on ArkivDigital, I first choose "Image Database", then choose (County) Kronoberg, then choose (parish) Torpa, then look at available records for that parish.  For Torpa, under Tax/Census  records, I only find  "See: Häradsskrivaren i Sunnerbo fögderi (1921-1966) FIaa:42" which is not what you are suggesting (and looks to be more recent information).  I don't see the "Registersökning" option in order to choose "Innehållsförteckning mantalslängder" so I must be coming in a different way.  I am using the English language screens so I may be misunderstanding something.  Hope you can help me figure out where I'm going wrong!  It does sound like a very valuable resource!   (I'll keep looking too).

Thanks for all your help,

Vicki Cihla

2020-03-18, 00:31
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Utloggad Kalle Birgersson

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I tried the english version now, and you start by clicking "index search" in top left corner. Then chose "table of content censuses" and then year and place and so on.

2020-03-18, 00:51
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Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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Hmmm, I don't find that "index search" at top left corner.  There is a "search" box further down but it is not a dropdown box where I can choose "table of content censuses".  Attached are screen prints of what I am seeing...hope that will help.

Thanks,

Vicki Cihla

2020-03-18, 00:54
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Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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I don't know if you were able to view those....

Vicki Cihla

2020-03-18, 01:28
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Utloggad Kalle Birgersson

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You need to be logged into the program, press the blue "start the program" button. If you have got an account, you posted an AD-link in the starting post so I supposed you have.

2020-03-18, 01:41
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Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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Wow, that was easy.   :-[  I don't sign in that way so I guess I'm missing out!  I'm on the Torpa page for 1729...looking for them. 

Thanks again for this help - it is very much appreciated,

Vicki Cihla

2020-03-18, 01:57
Svar #23

Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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I believe I'm looking at the correct page - it says Torpa socken (I chose Kronoberg) at the top - it is for 1729 but, I'm having trouble with the handwriting - I'm looking for Miäla with the name Persson but don't see it.  I have to stop for now but will take another look tomorrow!

Thanks so much for your help,

Vicki Cihla

2020-03-18, 09:40
Svar #24

Utloggad Kalle Birgersson

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In 1729 it's on page 350. Number 8 below "Torpa" headline is "Miäla Swen" and on the next line "Lars Pärsson". But you are right, the handwriting will take some time get used to.

2020-03-18, 14:32
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Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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Yes!  I found it!  I was reading a little about the mantalslängd last night and think it will be very interesting to follow it back through the years.  Now, if I could only read the handwriting! 

Thank you for this information - at least I knew I was on the right page and it was there somewhere!  I'm really learning a lot and so really appreciate your help! 

Vicki Cihla

2020-03-18, 20:59
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Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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If I understand correctly, every person on a farm, aged 18-63, is taxed annually.  These taxes are collected from the person responsible for the farms taxes (the owner of the farm?).  Is the responsible person always the farm owner, so the people who don't own a farm won't be on a tax list unless they are listed by name under the farm they are working on? 

In looking at the 1729 tax register, what do the check marks mean and what are all of the columns for (what does the 1 mean in the last column)? 

I think I'm going to have to look at a few more tax records to get a better understanding.

Thanks a lot for your help,

Vicki Cihla


2020-03-18, 22:12
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Utloggad Kalle Birgersson

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That particular tax register is different from the normal. I don't know what the check marks are for, normally there are none. And I don't know what the columns are for here, typically the first one is for men, the second for women, the third for adult sons, the fourth for adult doughters and then some for other categorys that might be present, each having different tax rates.

The names here are the people using the farm, not the owner. Well, some own it them self but most lease from someone else. The church had a lot of land, the king/government/state or whatever it is called had a lot also and some were in a category that only the nobility were allowed to buy and own. None of all those would use their land them self. There are other registers called "jordebok", earth book, that lists who really owns the property.

2020-03-18, 22:32
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Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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How interesting!  Not what I expected at all.  I am very curious to look at more records and will no doubt have more questions. 

Thanks so much,

Vicki Cihla

2020-03-19, 01:02
Svar #29

Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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Attached is the 1728 tax record listing Pår Nilsson at  Miäla, Torpa as you had indicated earlier.  Is there anything else I should know about this record that I'm missing?  How do I know for certain that he is the father of Lars Pårsson?

Riksgälsarkiven-Riksens-ständers-kontor-Kammarkontoret-GIg-815-1728-Image-1640-Page-319.jpg

Attached is the 1727 tax record for Miäla, Torpa, Kronoberg - here it looks like there are 2 names? Lars and Dr (farmhand) ?  Have I got the right people?  They don't seem to be part of the family...

Riksgäldsarkiven Riksens ständers kontor Kammarkontoret GIg:814 (1727) Image: 1620 Page: 317

Your thoughts would be much appreciated!

Vicki Cihla





2020-03-19, 01:16
Svar #30

Utloggad Kalle Birgersson

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Attached is the 1728 tax record listing Pår Nilsson at  Miäla, Torpa as you had indicated earlier.  Is there anything else I should know about this record that I'm missing?  How do I know for certain that he is the father of Lars Pårsson?
You need to find the birth note. If Lars Pärsson got his first child in 1725 he might have been born arund 1700. Also, I don't think we have got his marriage note? Or even the name of his wife. 

Attached is the 1727 tax record for Miäla, Torpa, Kronoberg - here it looks like there are 2 names? Lars and Dr (farmhand) ?  Have I got the right people?  They don't seem to be part of the family...
Three names actually, Swen, Lars and Dr. Gunne. For some reasons the two households att Miäla was written together this year. Gunne was probably just a hired farmhand, no family.

2020-03-19, 01:39
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Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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Perfect!  Thanks for this - I will continue researching for the birth and marriage records... thanks very much!

I will send a couple more I found (go forward rather than farther back at this point).

Vicki Cihla

2020-03-19, 01:43
Svar #32

Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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Attached is the 1730 tax record for Miäla, Torpa, Kronoberg - who is Brita that listed next to the farm name?  Lars Pårsson is still listed as he was in 1729.

ArkivDigital: Riksgäldsarkiven Riksens ständers kontor Kammarkontoret GIg:817 (1730) Image: 1850 Page: 365

Attached is the 1731 tax record for Miäla, Torpa, Kronoberg -  -lists  Lars Pårsson, it looks like there's another name, like Kirstin before his name.

ArkivDigital: Riksgäldsarkiven Riksens ständers kontor Kammarkontoret GIg:818 (1731) Image: 2000 Page: 393

I'm not sure about the names Brita and/or Kirstin - maybe I'm reading them incorrectly?  - and who they might be.

Please let me know if I'm missing something of importance.   

Thank you for any insight you can offer,

Vicki Cihla

2020-03-19, 10:22
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Utloggad Kalle Birgersson

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Brita has the letter d in front of her name - dotter/daugther. And Kierstin has p - piga/female farmhand. She probably belongs to the line above, but there was no more room to write there.

2020-03-19, 12:34
Svar #34

Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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Thank you - that is what I was wondering.   I can see you have opened a whole new way to learn more about these families and will continue doing so. You have given good insight into how to interpret these records and use this information to find more concrete information from the birth/marriage/death records that are available.

I thank you for that!! 

Before I get too far removed from the estate inventory, I'll continue on that as I work through the yearly tax records.

Fascinating!

Thanks again so very much for your help,

Vicki Cihla

2020-03-19, 18:20
Svar #35

Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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So much for going back to the estate inventory, I can't resist trying figure out if those new people we found in the tax records are related or not. 

Checking earliest available marriage records 1715 through 1731 for Lars Pårsson (thinking he may have had at least 2 children - Pår b. 1725 amd Anders b. 1731),  the only record I found was in 1729 (attached). 

Torpa-G-C-1-1690-1747-Image-100-Page-195

In the process I found something else that looks interesting - there was a late 1727 marriage record (attached) for a Pehr Nilsson to a woman from Miäla, Torpa.  Is it just a coincidence that he shows up on the tax list for the one and only time in Miäla, Torpa in 1728?  It is possible that it wasn't his first marriage and the his children were from a previous marriage.  In that case, I would have thought that he, at least, would be listed as a widower instead of drängen (if I read this correctly).  Also, there appears to be some confusion on the marriage record itself.   Or maybe it is just another Pehr Nilsson! 

Torpa-G-C-1-1690-1747-Image-99-Page-193

I'd welcome any thoughts on this!   Thanks for your help,

Vicki Cihla

 

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