Understanding Writing """"ss"""" or """"sf""""

[Barry Hill]

Could someone please explain why when I look at what I think is SS that it looks like sf?  The letter that I am sure is a second s drops below the line and looks nothing like the first s.  It seems I have noticed this pattern in several places with double S's.
 
Thanks
 
Thank you.

[Chris Bingefors]

That f is s written in the old germanic alphabet, it was commonly used in writing a double s.

[Heikki Särkkä]

It would be easier to comment if you gave us pictures of the various letter combinations.

[Anna-Carin Betzén]

Up to at least 1800, Swedish handwriting was based on the Gothic script, where most 's' inside words looked similar to 'f'; see this example.  
 
I think I've seen cases where someone has mixed it up and tried to put the long 'f'-like letter last rather than first, making a rather peculiar combination. Could that be it?

[Olle Elm]

Hi Barry,
We even have the possibilty to use the the double-ss here in AF; Look in the
where we have the ß .
Regards from,
Olle

[Barry Hill]

To Heikki,
 
Here is just one example.  On line 1. Jonsson the second s looks nothing like the first s.  In fact it looks far closer like the 'f' in Josefina on line 6.
 

 
Notice the ss double s above the header in Mossage above it is clearly 2 ss.  Now that I recognize that this is sometimes (but not always) done I can try to be aware of it when scrolling down a page looking for names.  It is just one small key to feeling more comfortable when looking at records.
 
I appreciate all the comments.
 
Barry

[Barry Hill]

Olle,  I think part of that was chopped off.  I must be overlooking it but I do not see a double ss.  Of course my wife says I can't even find the ketchup in the refrigerator

[Barry Hill]

Olle,  Are you saying the ß represents a double SS  

[Heikki Särkkä]

Barry, your example represents a fairly late hand of a bit over one hundred years ago. Perhaps the best way of differentiating the kind of 'long s' you have in JonsSon here and the f in Josefina is to look at the formation of the upper and lower loop. In the long s here you have an upper counter-clockwise loop and a lower clockwise loop whereas in the f here you have an upper counter-clockwise loop (or no upper loop at all) and a clockwise lower loop. By a counter-clockwise loop I mean one resembling the loop in the S of Sandhem here and by a clockwise loop in the g of Augusta. Moreover, in the f of Josefina the pen returns to the original downward line only to depart from it immediately on 'touchdown'. In some hands you the f line just about crsossing teh downward line and forming a minimal dot on the left-hand side of the donward line. Look for that (not visible here in Josefina).

[Barry Hill]

It isn't necessary for me to understand the answer to this question to read records but it is just puzzling to me.  Was there an old rule that when 2 's' are together then for some reason the second S is different than the first, or that it is written differently than a single 's' in the middle of a word?  I guess I find it hard to understand why the very same writer makes the very same letter so completely different in one place than he does in another place.
 
Maybe this is just a case of Barry, that's just how it is, get over it  

[Heikki Särkkä]

You've seeen the point, Barry. In the 18th century and earlier, following German scribal practice, two consecutive ss's were written as a composite letter very much resembling the Greek letter beta. Moreover, there was a third, word-final s very much resembling the Greek sigma.

[Barry Hill]

Aaaaaaaaah, thank you Heikki.  That's just what I needed.  If I don't at least understand a little of the reason behind something it drives me a wee bit crazy.

[Leif Lundkvist]

Barry,
 
Also note that Mossagård has an abbreviation sign in the end of the word. That is something that you find here and there, replacing something longer (not always ård). Another case of Barry, that's just how it is, get over it  
 
Leif

[Anna-Carin Betzén]

BTW, the Greek letter sigma, which Heikki mentioned, comes in two lower-case versions - one used at the end of words, the other in other places.

[Michael Tillander]

The S vs F confusion extends to printed text as well. Here is an example from the title page of Mythologica Fennica by Christfrid Ganander, published in 1789, facsimile reprint in 1954. The text reads Af ganla Runor samlad och uttydd, Af Christfrid Ganander, Thomasson, Phil. Mag & Sacell. (From old poetry, collected and axplained by C.G., Thomasson, Phil.Mag & Sacellan).
It is not easy to distinguish between s and f in this text. Note how the double s in the patronym Thomasson is made up of different versions on s.
 
Regards, Michael

[Arne Nilsson]

Hej,
 
the two types of s are a sharply (german stimmlos) spoken one (as in sport) and a softly (german stimmhaft) spoken one (spoken as the z in zero). The -son part of swedish names requires the hard s-form. To complicate things, the hard s is never written at the end of words, then replaced by the soft s. So Hans, who ends with a sharply spoken s is written with a soft s. A word combining such a word with an ending soft s with another word does not alter the rule for the sharply spoken s written as a soft one. So in swedish patronymics always both s-forms are used.
 
The letter ß is not a ss, but a sz. Some years ago, ß was in some cases replaced by ss, to make explanations more complicated. So german daß is now dass. But Maß remained Maß. When you don't have the letter ß on your typewriter, rules of orthography tell to use ss instead, notwithstanding, that ß is a sz in older scripture. As ß is just a lowercase-letter, and no uppercase-letter exists for it, in uppercase it is always SS.
 

 
Arne Nilsson

[Barry Hill]

Wow!  When I think how much I have learned in the 3 weeks since I committed to do this or die, I am amazed, but when I think of how much I don't know I am almost overwhelmed.  I am really shocked to see the print versions of letters so difficult to distinguish. I guess those using them developed the ability to quickly distinguish them but the differences are so subtle I don't know how they did it.  Probably the other letters made the word recognizable so they did not have to clearly and quickly identify every letter because they knew the word at a glance.  Maybe you just develop the brain can learn to identify them quickly at a glance.
 
I hesitated to even ask my original question but I am glad I did.  I really think the information all of you have contributed helps me identify letters and words on records.  Just maybe more importantly, it helps remove the frustration as I do search records because it now makes some sense to me.  This has been a good lesson that would have fit nicely into an early chapter of Your Swedish Roots.  I just looked, and see some of this is at least addressed in Cradled in Sweden chapter 7.  
 
I really wonder if you grasp the impact of the service you render.  Thank You.

[Birgitta Olsson]

I always thought the last s in the double s's in for example Jonsson was a way to distinguish that the name comes from son of Jon or to be exact Jon's son. My father born 1916 wrote our surname that way all his life. I think it looks rather nice.

[Janåke Gestblom]

You can also find the longer s before the shorter, probably only at the end of a word.