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Författare Ämne: Reading, translating help requested - Björsäter  (läst 1644 gånger)

2012-07-17, 22:32
läst 1644 gånger

Utloggad Kathryn Stone

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I could really use some help and advice regarding the following record:
 
[color=0000ff]Östergötland, Björsäter > Births CI:3 [1789-1829] page 59 [275.18.47800]
>>  Anna Cajsa born Sep 19 1799   born 1764 > Andra livgrenadjärregementet, TJUST company > Värna Parish, Ytterby File > # AL-02-0022-1785
[color=0000ff]3.[/color] Could the soldier Jonas also be the tegelslagare Jonas ? If so, how can I investigate this further? Also, is it logical that this birth record for his daughter would not mention his also being a livgrenadjär?  
 
The Björsäter Hfl 1800-1805 [AI:2] includes Sjöberga on pages 92-96. This time period is only months after the birth of Anna Cajsa, yet I can only find 3 of the witnesses, and not Jonas and family.
[color=0000ff]4.[/color] Does anyone have a suggestion for finding them? I have already checked birth-death-marriage-hfl records for Värna, Björsäter and surrounding parishes, so they must be further away than that.
[I have found Anna Cajsa Jönsdotter in Värna and Svinstad from 1813 forward, including her married life. But I have found nothing for her childhood years 1800-1812, so I do not know if she had siblings, or where and when her parents were married, were born or died.]
 
I realize that with the limitations of available records it may not be possible to know these things.  However I am also certain that if there is a way to find this information, it would be the members of this forum who could figure it out.
 
My eternal thanks,
Kathryn

2012-07-18, 14:33
Svar #1

Utloggad Bo Lindquist

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Ok, I'll try and answer what I can.
 
1. What I can see it says Jungfru Hornander which means  maiden Hornander where Hornander must be a surname. I was unable to find any such person in Sjöberga and the closest match i could find was a find a Christina Hornstrand. (Björsäter AI:2 page 93)
 
2. That's correct. 30 was the mother's age at Anna Cajsas birth.
 
3. It's possible. Maybe Jonas was a livgrenadjär before and then, for whatever reason, left the army and became a tegelslagare. I haven't been able to find any proofs of whether they are the same or different persons. But it is interesting that Anna Cajsa later on (1814 to 1824) is living in Värna parish and in Ytterby. (Värna AI:2 (1812-1815)  page 137, AI:3 page 132, AI:4 (1821-1825) page sid 47)  
 
4. Which witnesses have you located and which are you still searching for?

2012-07-18, 14:36
Svar #2

Utloggad Bo Lindquist

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What's the earliest source you've found Anna Cajsa besides her birth?

2012-07-18, 19:07
Svar #3

Utloggad Kathryn Stone

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Bo -
 
I appreciate your help!  
Jungfru Hornander is the witness I could not find [because I couldn't figure out the name].  
 
The earliest record I can find for Anna Cajsa is 1813.  
See: Svinstad, Hfl AI:2, page 283, Örsätter.
I believe she is named as a tjenstflicka  ...  what do you think?
 
In 1814 she is still in Svinstad, but is now at #152. Unnerstäd.  
See: Svinstad, Hfl AI:1, page 242.
 
[In 1824 she marries Gustaf Gustafsson in Värna, and then they move to Svinstad to raise a family. She dies there in 1871.]
 
So from Anna Cajsa's birth in 1799 until we see her working in Svinstad in 1813, she and her family seem to disappear.  And help or advice you can offer for finding this family, or any part of it, during those years would be a huge help.
 
Thanks,
Kathryn

2012-07-22, 17:30
Svar #4

Utloggad Carl Wolf

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Hi Kathryn, I think this might be your Anna Cajsa and her family living at Rabbantorp, Värna parish:  Värna AI:1 (1802-1810) Bild 81 / sid 149.  Jonas is now using his patrynomic of Jönsson and he has become a torpare, according to the birth record of their daughter Maria: Värna C:2 (1797-1861) Bild 22 / sid 35. His wife is listed as Maja Ericsdotter in the household examination record, but Maria's birth record gives her name as Maria Samuelsdotter.  The family is next found at Norrberga: Värna AI:2 (1812-1815) Bild 45 / sid 77, Jonas has died sometime before the birth of their son Anders (13 Dec 1805) but there's a gap in the death records from Värna from the end of July 1805 through December 1805.  You'll also see that Anna Cajsa now has the incorrect birth date of 28 Sept 1799 that seems to have stayed with her for the rest of her life.

2012-07-23, 20:25
Svar #5

Utloggad Kathryn Stone

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Greetings Carl!
I was thrilled to get your response including research on Anna Cajsa and family, and I thank you for all the time and effort it surely must have taken.  
I must admit to having a few hesitations about two inconsistancies and would like to hear your thinking about disregarding them.
 
1. Anna Cajsa is born to tegelslagare-dräng Jonas Ytterman. From there on, however we are following torparen Jonas Jönsson.  
This is not a small change in both his name and his occupation.
 
2. Sisters Anna Cajsa Jönsdotter, 1799, and Maria Jönsdotter, 1803, are born to Maria Samuelsdotter. Their brother Anders, 1805, is born to Maria Ericsdotter.
Jonas' hustru is Maja Ericsdotter in the HFL 1802-1810, though I cannot determine if they were at that place for all of those years.  
Then, I wondered if perhaps hustru Maria Samuelsson died  shortly after the birth of dotter Maria in 1803, and Jonas remarried to Maria Ericsdotter in time for her to give birth to son Anders in 1805.  However, I am not able find a death or marriage record to support this theory. And then the 1803 birth record for dotter Maria does list the family, including hustru Maria Samuelsdotter, as living at Rabbantorp  ...  where the HFL names her as hustru Maria Ericsdotter.  
So we are left with what I feel to be a rather bizare set of errors for hustru Maria.
 
Do you feel these inconsistancies are plausable even if they are not explainable?
 
I really do appreciate your help,
Kathryn

2012-07-24, 18:44
Svar #6

Utloggad Carl Wolf

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Hi Kathryn, you are wise to question the inconsistencies, I agree they are a bit troubling and I hope others will share their opinions as well.  Like you, I thought maybe Maria Samuelsdotter died after daughter Maria's birth but there is no record of her death in Värna, as you found.  I looked in some of the surrounding parishes unsuccessfully with the hopes of finding a marriage record before 1799 and also tried following Maria forward from her birth in Klockricke but also was unsuccessful, assuming I found the right family, which is crossed out in the household exam record with no indication of where they went.  
 
As for Jonas' surname, I have an ancestor who stopped using the surname Kompan when he was discharged from being a Båtsman and instead started using his patrynomic of Persson on becoming a Torpare.  This is only conjecture, but perhaps Jonas kept his military surname of Ytterman when he became a brick maker since he might have been considered a craftsman, and started using his patrynomic when he began crofting.  I am guessing from your previous posts that the only records you have for Jonas are Anna Cajsa's birth record and the one from the Central Soldiers Register?

2012-07-24, 19:04
Svar #7

Utloggad Kathryn Stone

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Carl, thank you for your reply. You are correct in guessing that the only records I have for Jonas Ytterman are Anna Cajsa's birth record and the Central Soldiers Register.  I was hoping someone might have access to additional soldier records that would at least provide his birth parish. Without some piece of new information it seems that we are at a 'brick wall' with this.
 
Do you have a guess as to why Jonas would have changed from being a brickmaker to being a crofter? Wouldn't that be a step down in status?
 
And as you suggest it would be helpful to hear others thoughts on these inconsistencies and problems.  
 
Again, I am so very grateful for your help and input,
Kathryn

2012-07-26, 17:33
Svar #8

Utloggad Carl Wolf

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Hi Kathryn, I looked through the generalmönsterulla (military rolls, not sure I spelled that correctly) for Tjust Company of the Andra livgrenadjärregementet on SVAR, they do not have every year but there is one soldier enscripted from Ytterby.  For 1778, 1781, and 1785 that soldier was Anders Ytterman, 1791 it was Carl Ytterman, and 1793 the post was vacant because Carl Ytterman died 22 Apr 1793.  The next roll is for 1799 and the post is also vacant, it is hard to read but I think it states it was assigned to a different rote.  So unfortunately I found nothing about Jonas Ytterman.
 
Here are a few more puzzle pieces, you maybe will need to decide if there's enough evidence to conclude that this is the correct family.  I am inclined to be less concerned about Jonas' changing surname and occupation than Maria/Maja's patrynomic of Ericsdotter vs. Samuelsdotter, but maybe the fact that Samuelsdotter is listed in the birth records for both daughters is enough proof.
 
There is a bouppteckning for Jonas Jonsson, Bankekinds Härad (FII:11 1800-1807, bild 1615/sida 3195) written 9 Dec 1805, it states he died 3 ejusdum (same month).  It states barnens faderbroder (the brother of the children's father) was Lars Jonsson, torparen from Hemsjö, Björsäter.  Household exam for Björsäter AI:2 1800-1805 bild 31/sida 49 lists Lars Jonsson who was born 1762 in the same parish, he also sometimes used the surname Björling.  Lars was born 21 Oct 1762 in Sjövalla, Björsäter to parents Jonas Jonsson and Catharina Olufsdotter.  They also had a son Jöns (interchangeable with Jonas) born 1 May 1765.
 
In the Örtomta Parish church book C:3 1790-1830 bild 124/sida 225 is found a marriage on 7 Oct 1798: dräng Jonas Jonsson från Ytterby i Värna och pigan Maja Ericsdotter, Hageby.  Maja/Maria was born 1771 in Klockricke according to the Örtomta household exams A:15 1792-1798 bild 28/sida 42 and AI:6 1798-1805 bild 21/sida 28.  I think her actual birthdate was 11 Nov 1870 (Klockricke C:1 1688-1778 bild 141/sida 273), she was the daughter of Eric Andersson and Anna Benctsdotter from Tröstorp.  Klockricke household exam AI:2 1770-1780 bild 26, sida 37.
 
At Disbyt (a database of user-submitted Swedish family trees) there is one for Jonas Ytterman, Maria Samuelsdotter, and their daughter Anna Cajsa that was submitted in 2008, though there is no information there for them that you do not already have.  Let me know if you would like that individual's contact information, I will need to send it to you privately though.

2012-07-27, 01:20
Svar #9

Utloggad Kathryn Stone

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Hi Carl -  
 
Wow! that is a ton of information!  Thank you so much for doing all that digging on my behalf :-)
 
So, it seems we can make a clear connection from Jonas to Maja Ericsdotter by way of marriage record, and her birth date coincides with what is listed in the Värna Hfl [AI:1, page 148] and [AI:2, page 76], where it is equally clear that she has a daughter Anna Cajsa, born in Björsäter 1799 September, and a daughter Maria born in Värna 1803 April.
 
But, as you know, both Anna Cajsa and Maria have birth records that say their mother was Maja Samuelsdotter.
 
So everything matches  ...  except that it doesn't. What do you believe?

2012-07-27, 03:24
Svar #10

Utloggad Magnus Hagelin

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Hi Kathryn and Carl
The tax/census records (mantalslängd) for Björsäter give us the following information:
 
1799 Sjöberga Tegelbruk och Lantbruk - Jonas Jonsson and wife. No child registered
1800 Sjöberga Tegelbruk och Lantbruk - Jonas Ytterman and wife. One child registered
 
This may indicate that Jonas Ytterman in Björsäter has the patronymic Jonsson.  
 
I've also found Jonas Ytterman in the 1789 muster role (mönsterrulla)for Andra Livgrenadjärsregementet, Ytterby under Tjust kompani.
It states that Jonas was at service between July 1st 1785 and November 29th 1786. He asked to be released from service due to sickness and was exceeded by Carl Ytterman. He was 21 years old and had 1,5 years of service.
 
In the tax/census records for Värna can we find the following:
 
1786 Ytterby - Ryttaren Jonas Ytterman and his mother
1787 Ytterby - Ryttaren Jonas Ytterman and his mother
 
/Magnus

2012-07-27, 07:54
Svar #11

Utloggad Kathryn Stone

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Magnus -
 
Thank you !! How wonderful of you to dig up the records necessary to make sense of the Ytterman/Jonsson conflict.  Happily, that is now one mystery that appears to be cleared up.  Can you work some similar kind of magic to clear up the mystery of Maja Samuelsdotter/Ericsdotter?
 
Really, I am so grateful for your help!
Tack så mycket,
 
Kathryn

2012-07-27, 17:53
Svar #12

Utloggad Carl Wolf

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Magnus, I am very happy you were able to find the information in the muster role, I am not very experienced with those records so I am glad someone else looked at them.
 
Kathryn, I found Maria Ericsdotter's death record in Värna in 1833, I left my notes at home so will need to post the citations later.  Following her back she remained in Värna after Jonas' death and it turns out that her daughter Maria died young in the early 1820's.  The household examination records indicate she had lungsot/tuberculosis but the cause of death in the death book is diarrhea.
 
A possible theory about the Samuelsdotter/Ericsdotter error, the child's mother was never actually present at the baptism so maybe Jonas had the wrong patrynomic wrong for his wife and none of her family members were present to correct it.  He was already deceased by the time his son Anders was baptized so this could account for why the correct name is listed in Anders' birth/baptism record.  And one more piece of circumstantial evidence:  Anna Cajsa's name is the combined names of Maria Ericsdotter's mother (Anna) and Jonas Jonsson's mother (Cajsa is a variation of Catharina).

2012-07-27, 21:07
Svar #13

Utloggad Kathryn Stone

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Hi Carl -
 
I can hardly believe that all of this is starting to make sense!  I like your theory about the Samuelsdotter/Ericsdotter conflict. And I also think I have found Jonas and Maria in the Björsäter HFL for 1800-1805. See page 94, Sjorberga [the place named in Anna Cajsa's birth record], almost at the bottom, there is a Jonas Jonsson and hustru Maria Ericsdotter!  Of course, they are both listed as being born in 1770, which would not be correct, but considering all the other errors, I believe I should just ignore.  What do you think?
 
Also, with the information you provided, I found Maria Ericsdotter's death record and also one for her daughter Maria Jonsdotter.  So thank you very much for that piece of research too.
 
However, just as I was feeling that everything was beginning to fall into place nicely, I have found another piece of confusing information.
Jonas Jonsson and Catharina Olufsdotter, the parents of my Jonas Jonsson [born 1765, and actually named Jöns] and his brother Lars [born 1762] had another son in 1768 and named him Jonas! So, do you think my Jonas [born Jöns] is the husbamd of Maria Ericsdotter/father of Anna Cajsa/former soldier? Or is my Jonas actually Jonas, born in 1768?
 
Björsäter Födde CI:2  page 125 = 1768 FEB 2, Jonas
Björsäter Födde CI:2  page 117 = 1765 MAR 1, Jöns
Björsäter Födde CI:2  page 111 = 1762 OCT 21?, Lars
 
This is so frustrating it is almost funny  ...  but not quite :-)
 
And lastly, should I be using Jönsson  or  Jonsson ?

2012-07-28, 18:39
Svar #14

Utloggad Carl Wolf

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Hi Kathryn, I think you've definitely found Jonas and Maria in Sjöberga, there certainly are a lot of errors in these church records that would excuse Jonas' wrong birth year.  And maybe Anna Cajsa is not listed because they moved to Värna before the priest got around to adding her into the record.  In any case as you've noted this places the couple in the location where Anna Cajsa was listed as being born.  
 
I have a family in my tree that named one son Per and another Peter, but both were eventually called Peter.  Also there is one with two daughters born nine years apart who were both named Botel even though the first one (my ancestor) was still living when the second one wsa born.  So it is possible that the child who was baptised Jöns eventually had the name Jonas even though he had a brother with the same name.
 
Here is Maria Ericsdotter as she moved around Värna after her husband's death in case you haven't already found these, you'll see there are also many errors such as Maria's place of birth changes from Klockricke to Örtomta beginning in 1816, and the year that Maria became a widow has increased by 10 years.
 
AI:2 1812-1815 bild 85/sid 157 Torp Wintergarten
AI:3 1816-1820 sid 140 Andersbo; 1820 moved to Kolbotten bild 70/sid 124
AI:4 1821-1825 sid 40 Kolbotten; 1825 moved to Ingetorp bild 61/sid 53
AI:5 1826-1830 sid 56 Ingetorp;  1827 moved to Fattigstugan bild 9/sid 1
AI:6 1832-1838 bild 9/sid 1 Fattigstugan
 
This is probably Jonas' father's death:
Björsäter C:2 1720-1788 bild 167/sid 327:  21 Apr 1785 Torparen Jonas Jönsson av Lungsot, Sjövalla, 51 years old
 
And probably his mother:
Björsäter AI:1 1792-1795 bild 1401/sid 259 Sjövalla:  enkan Catharina Olofsdotter born 1730 in Björsäter
 
And probably their marriage:
Björsäter C:2 1720-1788 bild 199/sid 231 11 Oct 1761 drängen och torparen Jonas Jönsson Sjövalla, enkan hustru Catharina Olofsdotter Mis?

2012-07-28, 19:58
Svar #15

Utloggad Charles LaVine

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Ytterman was obviously the name assigned to Jonas during his military service, since it was also assigned to his successor -- a general practice in the Swedish army at the time. And it is not uncommon for such discharged soldiers to keep their military names upon returning to civilian life.
 
Charles

2012-07-29, 19:04
Svar #16

Utloggad Kathryn Stone

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To Carl, Charles and the many Anbytarforum participants who have been so kind and generous in aiding my search and understanding regarding Anna Cajsa Jönsdotter and Jonas Jönsson  -
 
Thanks to all of you, I now have a fairly good understanding of this family group. I will be forever indebted to this forum for all of the help I have received, and can only hope that at some point you will each be blessed with similar generosity.
 
Though I do not require any further information with regard to this family, I do still have a few remaining research difficulties, so you will continue to see my pop up in various places in this forum.
 
Until then, enjoy the Olympics, you've all already earned Gold as far as I am concerned.
 
Kathryn

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