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Författare Ämne: Can you read this?  (läst 1476 gånger)

2011-06-08, 00:23
läst 1476 gånger

Utloggad Karen Van Etten

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Husförhör 1871-1875; Hallsberg, Orebro [A1:21], at page 157 - Genline reference 395.10.36500.  Pastor notation at Line 11, left side Afk--- i Kumla - 2 lysningar med ?? Johan Larsson i ??  ?? ??  I know the banns were read twice, for Maria and Johan, on Oct. 11 and Oct. 18, 1874 - but where was Johan Larsson located?   Thank you for any help you can provide.
 
Karen Van Etten

2011-06-08, 09:30
Svar #1

Utloggad Nils Forsman

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Afkunnades i Kumla - 2:a lysningen med rättaren Johan Larsson i Limsta, Irsta sn, Västerås L.
 
A translation attempt...
 
Published in Kumla - second pass with foreman Johan Larsson in Limsta, Irsta parish, Västerås county ( Västmanland today).
 
Interesting, this. Kumla EI:1 p 45, No 23, to the right, marriage page :
 
Lysningen No 23 återkallades av Johan Larsson, sedan den 2:a gången blivit avkunnad, emedan hans trolovade befunnits hava en annan.
 
Pass 23 revoked by Johan Larsson, after second publish, since his fiancee has been found to have another.
 
Irsta AI:14 p 53:
 
Foreman Johan Larsson, born 25 January 1846 in Kumla Örebro county, moved from Kumla 1 November 1873, obs: Not free to marriage, moved to Romfartuna parish 14 November 1876.  
 
nils

2011-06-08, 10:27
Svar #2

Utloggad John Bentley

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Lysning, the banns called in church prior to a marriage taking place.  So the second translation becomes clearer if expressed as -
 
Banns No 23 cancelled by Johan Larsson, after the 2nd time they were announced, since his fiance is found to have another.  
 
He was jilted, nearly at the altar in other words.
 
I suspect an error in the second translation, possibly now free to marry, but I dont have access to this.
 
John
 
(Meddelandet ändrat av Johnb 2011-06-08 10:30)

2011-06-08, 13:22
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Utloggad Nils Forsman

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2011-06-08, 16:31
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Utloggad John Bentley

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I stand corrected !  My apologies.
 
Obs - Ej ledig till äktenskap = Note, not free to marry.  But no indication why ?
 
John.

2011-06-08, 16:56
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Utloggad Eva Sandevik

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More to this than meets the eye. If you look at Kumla AI:20a Torp Nr 2 p 32: line 10 you find Maria Albertina and also that she moves back to Halsberg 1874 nbr 203. On line 22 you find Pettersson, Frans Wilhelm from Längbro (born May 26,1854) moving to Längbro 1874, nov nbr 202.
January 16 1875 Maria Albertina gives birth to a boy, Carl Wilhelm o.ä (Hallsberg C:8 picture 33).
Hallsberg AI:22 p 116 a note regarding marriage between Maria Albertina and Frans Wilhelm, they are married in Hallsberg EI:2 picture 6 and then moves to Hagatorp, Karlslund, Längbro. Ånsta-Längbro AI:25b p 19. After that they move on to Örebro in 1877 but I did not continue to look for them.
Regards
Eva

2011-06-08, 17:59
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Utloggad Nils Forsman

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I was surprised that it seemed relatively easy to cancel the banns. It was normally quite a complicated process. The actual marriage was merely a party without any signification before 1734, and the banns was the most important part for a long time. A divorce should be handled by domkapitlet regardless if the marriage was fulfilled or not. The legal implications of the banns was removed completely first in 1973.  
 
A bann was valid for 3 months. Maybe that is what the note is all about?
 
nils

2011-06-08, 20:04
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Utloggad John Bentley

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This was 1874 and I have looked through the WikiRötter articles on here and tried other searches.  Banns were a legal requirement at that time replaced by a hindersprovning declaration today to ensure that the couple could legally marry, but was that all ?  This was followed in a week to 3(?) months by the marriage itself. I only put this as a contribution, but with a personal interest.
 
The context is that I have a copy of a trolovning (betrothal) declaration from a church register dated 1852 (an unusual inclusion ?), which I have been told does have even more significance.  This 100 word statement confirms that the pair have willingly entered into a promise of marriage and are aware of the legal consequences.  Witnesses include the brides brother, mother and uncle.  
 
John

2011-06-08, 20:33
Svar #8

Utloggad Karen Van Etten

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Nils, John, and Eva - Thank you very, very much, for providing Johan's location - I had no hope of ever reading it.
   
Yes, Frans and Maria did marry during November, 1876.  Their 1878 husförhör record contains a notation regarding son Karl - deras gemensams. fore äktenskap.
 
Regarding that Kumla, Torp Nr 2, page 32 reference, the notation at Line 10 starts out Byer.[???] til akt. and ends with återtagen.  Now that you told me, I can see Johan's village.  But, was this Oct 11, 1874 the 1st bann announcement, or was it the cancellation ?  What is the 1st word?
 
Maria came to Kumla, Orebro during 1869.  Frans first came to Kumla, in Nov, 1872 (page 20, Kumla - GID 2241.12.64600).  He moved to page 32, where Maria was located, during November, 1873.  Johan Larsson left Kumla during 1873, arriving in Irsta, Västmanland on Nov 1, 1873.  He appears in household examination on Sept 6, 1874 and Dec 2, 1874 in Irsta - GID 2344.35.3900 - and, as Nils points out, the notation appears here that Johan was not free to marry.  Perhaps his employer would not allow it ?  There was no record of Johan leaving Irsta until 1876.
 
Again, thank you for helpful comments.
Karen V.

2011-06-08, 22:27
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Utloggad Nils Forsman

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Yes it was 1874 and laws and praxis had changed. I read somewhere that banns still were important and had legal implications.  
 
However, I had a look in Nordisk Familjebok (NF) http://runeberg.org/nfan/0643.html
 
As I understand the article, the wedding is the important part at this time, with same unmentioned exceptions.
 
NF also claims that förlovning and trolovning are equal, and that trolovning is an legal agreement with consequenses for the part who breaks it.
 
On the other hand, lysning is a way to announce the marriage, mostly in order to find out any obstacles.
 
I have seen church registers - earlier - there lysning and trolovning are more or less synonymous.  
The church never liked the lysning concept. Slightly surpising that it took so long for them to phase it out.
 
nils

2011-06-09, 10:02
Svar #10

Utloggad Nils Forsman

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Karen:
 
lysn. t?? äkt.
 
bann (to?) marriage. Seems to be both announcement and - a week later - cancellation.
 
I doubt that his employers opinions would be written down into the hfl. My theory is is that the cancelled bann was, in some sense, valid for a while.
 
The groom moves to Romfartuna parish, meets Christina Gustafsdotter, and in the bann register of 1877:23 (okt 14 and 21) there are two banns and a note: Lysningen avbruten (sän?) bristande hinders---- å Larssons sida.
 
In Jan 14 1878 they move to Västerås.
Jan 15, they arrive to Västerås domkyrkoförsamling BI:3, no 12 and 13 in 1878. A blurred note: första lysn. (???)
EI:5 1878 between no 3 and 4: wedding jan 27, 1878. A note: Lysningsattest från pastor i Romfartuna.
 
AIa:19 p 1190 claims that three banns were held in Romfartuna.
 
And that their first son was born july 1, 1878...
 
weird.
 
nils

2011-06-09, 19:22
Svar #11

Utloggad Karen Van Etten

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Nils Forsman - In two messages, you cited the volume E1.  So, I now understand that some volumes have not been filmed yet by Genline.  Perhaps when those become available, there will be a clearer history regarding Maria and Johan.  It would seem reasonable, that there would be an 1873 engagement, if Johan was away, living in Irsta during 1874.  
 
I was able to see the 1877 Romfartuna Vigelsbok at GID 100019.32.58700.  Entry No. 12 was written for Johan Larsson and Christina Gustafsdotter, but the 12 was crossed out.  There is a different note on the far left-hand side of the page regarding Larsson [unreadable on my computer].  After that note, there is a 2nd notation showing their Vigde 1878 [because Romfartuna pastor had been sent a note from Västerås, as was also recorded in Västerås book].
 
Many thanks for your comments.  
Karen V.

2011-06-10, 00:58
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Utloggad Ingela Martenius

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Betrothal and banns were never the same thing, or had the same legal consequences.
 
Until 1734 the only legal way to marry was to have a betrothal. The church ceremony was just a blessing. Compare it with how it's done today in e.g. Germany, France, The Netherlands: a civil ceremony followed by a religious ceremony where the civil ceremony is the legally binding one and the church ceremony is just for pomp and circumstance.
In the Church Law of 1686 people were adviced to have a church wedding ceremony, but it had no legal significance.
 
In 1734 the church ceremony was made legally binding, and was originally intended to be the only legal way to contract a marriage. However, the farmer estate made such a tremendous fuss that we had to have a Swedish compromise (i.e. have your cake and eat it): if a proper betrothal had been entered upon, its legal consquences were equal to a church ceremony. This meant most importantly that any child born to a properly betrothed couple was legitimate. Since a betrothal had such legal consequences it couldn't just be broken off by the parties without no further ado, a betrothal had to be properly ended in a court and the bishop would issue the decree.
The final vestiges of this odd situation didn't disappear until about 1971 (yes, 40 years ago); until then a child born out of wedlock but within a betrothal was legitimate and stood in a better position when it came to inheriting its father.
 
Originally there was a vast difference between a betrothal [trolovning] and an engagement [förlovning]. The betrothal was public, with witnesses (sometimes even a written contract), and effectively constituted marriage (also after 1734, as shown above). An engagement was private, and involved only the man and the woman. The only legal consequence of an engagement was that it could be the basis of a breach of promise - i.e. if an engagement was broken off one of the parties could have the right to monetary compensation for preparations for the promised marriage, like a wedding dress or decorating a house.
In time - certainly by the latter part of the 1800's - the difference between betrothal and engagement disappeared, first in people's minds and later also in the law.
 
Banns were just the announcing (in the bride's parish) of the intended wedding, so that any objections could be voiced. Banns were read on three consecutive Sundays, from the pulpit, and were valid from the third Sunday (there were couples who married on the third Sunday though they were meant to wait a week) and for four months (if the couple hadn't married within four months, the banns had to be read again).
The Swedish church ceremony has never contained that exciting bit about if anyone has any objections let them be heard now or be forever silent. That was taken care of by the banns.
 
It was very important to be able to show that you were indeed free to marry, otherwise the reading of the banns would - as in this case - be broken off. If it was obvious from the start that there would be problems, the vicar wouldn't even start reading them. One such obstacle was if you had emigrated and then returned; my grandmother emigrated in 1897 and returned in 1901. Thus she could show no papers (valid in Sweden) for 1897-1901 when she wanted to marry in 1905. The solution was that an announcement had to be made in the official Swedish newspaper [Post & Inrikes]; only a certain time after the announcements would the vicar allow the banns to be read.
 
The church has never had any problems with the banns [lysning]; what they had a problem with was the betrothal since that was a civil contract not involving the church. The banns wasn't a problem since the church naturally wasn't interested in marriages that had to be annulled due to things like e.g. bigamy, lacking the marriage guardian's [giftomannens] consent (necessary for all women - except widows - until 1872 and for noble women until 1882), being too closely related etc.
However, since Ansgar set foot in Birka in the 9th century the church fought to have the church wedding made the only legally binding way to marry. 900 years later the 1734 law very nearly met this goal but little more than a century later it was necessary to introduce civil weddings (due to the parties having different religions); civil weddings became available to everyone, no reasons needed, in 1908.
 
Ingela
PS. You can read more about betrothals, banns, weddings here: http://web.comhem.se/~u31263678/genealogy/Wedding.pdf

2011-06-10, 17:29
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Utloggad Kristina Gunnarsdotter

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Karen, Nils and others,
 
In Kumla book of marriages, EI:1, 1861-1892 (filmed by AD Online), page 45, it says:
Lysningen nr 23 återkallades af Johan Larsson, sedan den 2:ne gånger blifvit afkunnad, emedan hans trolofvade befunnits häfdad af en annan.
 
The bann No 23 was cancelled by Johan Larsson, after beeing announced twice, since his bethrothed was made pregnant by another.}
 
(Meddelandet ändrat av Kristina1 2011-06-10 17:32)

2011-06-10, 17:34
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Utloggad Kristina Gunnarsdotter

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And the picture:
 

2011-06-10, 18:52
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Utloggad Karen Van Etten

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Kristina Gunnarsdotter - You are an angel!  For me, the proof that Frans was Karl's father was found in the 1878 husförhör (see my June 8, 2011 note above), but also understood a little more proof was needed, than just accepting the word deras.  Now we also have the pastor writing Johan's  testimony, that Johan was not the father.  Which makes absolute sense, since Johan was living in another town at the time.
 
After their marriage, Frans and Maria went on to have more children, and remained together until her death in 1906.  Their son, Karl, became a marvelous family man.  
 
Thank you, all of you who helped with this research.
 
Karen Van Etten

2011-06-10, 19:04
Svar #16

Utloggad Kristina Gunnarsdotter

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Here is the picture of the bann entry on the left side of page 45. The dates for the bann announcements are october 11, 18 and 25 (the same for the couple before and after). The bann was cancelled some time between Oct 18 and 25. In the column to the right (date of marriage) it says See the marriage book (which is on the right side of page 45).
 

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