Äldre inlägg (arkiv) till 2005-03-21

[Joyce Philpot]

I have 2 records which I cannot decipher.The first is GID277.16.68000 which is the birth of Cajsa Greta on February 2. I know she was born in Brunneby butI can't decipher the mother's last name or where they were from.
The second record is GID:320.18.94500. In the last column it would appear she moved in 1839 but I can't make out the location. I've been fairly successful at learning to read the records, but the handwriting is sometimes a problem.

[Olle Andersson]

Joyce!
 
My deciphering:
 
1) Mother Stina Samuelsdotter.
Location Labacken.
Ref.: GID 277.8.32100
 
2) Moving to Motala in 38
 
Regards

[Olle Andersson]

Joyce!
 
I checked the GID 341.2.68500 etc. for people moving into Motala 1838/39 and could not find Cajsa Greta.
The 277.8.32100 clearly states 1839 but the location is very difficult to read. I'll search a bit more.

[Joyce Philpot]

Olle:
 
Thank you for the help with those names. Cajsa Andersdotter is my gg grandmother. I was able to track some of her moves before 1840. At that time she gave birth in Motala to an illegitimate son. He later shows up with the last name of Ullstam, which does not appear to be a common name.  
 
Cajsa appears in the Krtisberg records (320.18.94500) with many other women identified as pig. Would there be a circumstance where a lot of women were all congregated in the same area?
 
I was also told that she may have had to pay a fine to the church for adultery and the father may have also been fined . If this is true, are there records to substantiate this? I have yet to figure out how my ggrandfather got his last name.
 
Regards,
Joyce

[Olle Andersson]

Joyce!
 
As for the congregation of pigs (Hi), I believe this household headed by the Grosshandlare/Wholesale dealer Mr. Hjertstedt did have quite a turnover of maids. However not unusual at that time. You can compare the Hitkom/Came from column with the  Bortflyttad/Moved to column and see the time each girl stayed. Also the number of maids did reflect the status of this household - perhaps they even did work in his business as well as in the household.
 
Tracing illegitimate children, there are some info on this particular subject elsewhere on Anbytarforum. A search for illegitimate gave some ideas like
 http://aforum.genealogi.se/discus/messages/2450/14483.html?1016723973
 
Regards
 
Olle

[Elisabeth Thorsell]

To read more about children with missing fathers, just click here.
 
But do go also to Swedish Roots and check the various articles there.

[Joyce Philpot]

Elisabeth:
 
Thank you. I have read your article about tracing unknown fathers. It was very informative.
 
I also must apologize. I replied to you before and didn't realize that I had misspelled your name.  
 
Joyce

[Joyce Philpot]

Olle:
Once again I must ask for your help with reading a record - GID:406.17.76200 - Jöns - born October 22, 1757. The first word appears to be the father's status or occupation, but the father's last name is what I am having trouble with. Thanks to all the helpful people out there, I have made great progress tracing my Swedish ancestors.
Regards,
Joyce

[Olle Andersson]

Joyce!
 
Always happy to help.
Father's name Petter (Peter) Gisberg
From death record (GID 406.17.84300):
Born 1725, died July 7 1764
 
Not too good with old writing - just starting to learn. In death record I see Peter was organ player (organist) but not sure about the first title in Jöns' birth record and in Peter's death record. The death record also informs that Peter's father was Jöns Andersson and mother Stina Persdotter.
Peter father to 5 children 4 daughters and 1 son.
 
There are even some more - shows that you can get lots of information.  
 
Mother Kierstin Pärsdotter
From household record 1773-1775 Page 17
GID 406.2.27200
Kierstin Born 1722 June 14th
 
Regards,
 
Olle

[Olle Andersson]

Joyce!
 
Lotta Nordin did decipher the title of Petter - it reads klåckaren or in modern swedish klockaren - parish clerk and organist.
 
So now I've learned something also!
 
Olle

[Joyce Philpot]

Olle and Lotta:
You two are amazing. I never would have found that death record or Kierstin's birthday. I looked at the birth record for Jöns and I thought it said Gisberg, but that to me didn't fit the pattern for most names I have seen so I decided to ask for help.
Thanks to both of you.
Regards,
Joyce

[Henrik Mosén]

Hi Joyce,
 
I was just wondering why you were interested in Peter Gisberg and his wife - are you a descendant?
 
In that case I would very much like to ge some information from Peter and a couple of generations forward (I imagine that you might be a descendant through his son Jöns that you asked about above).
 
Am I right when I think that you want to know more about Peter Gisberg's and his wife's ancestors? I don't know very much about Peter's, but I have some information about his wife's ancestors, at least her grandparents and one pair of great grandparents.
 
Henrik

[Joyce Philpot]

Hi Henrik:
You are correct. I am a descendant through Jöns.
Let me know if you have access to the Genline records. If you do, I can provide you with the numbers and a few generations of ancestors.
 
Joyce

[Joyce Philpot]

Henrik:
I am posting this here just in case someone else might be interested.
Petter Gisberg's son was Jöns Persson-b.22October 1757 in Veta.
He married Cajsa Abrahamsdotter b.03August1769 in Ask.
Child:
Peter Johsson b.12August1797 in Hagebyhöga.
He married Cajsa Lisa Nilsdotter b.17February1810
in Ransberg.
Children:
Maja Cajsa Persdotter b.8December1833 in Orlunda.
Carl Persson-b.01January 1836 in Vastra Stenby.
Charlotta Persdotter b.23January 1838 in Vastra Stenby.

[Henrik Mosén]

Hi Joyce,
 
I don't know if this information is new to you, but I suspect that some of it might be. Unfortunately I haven't got the time to translate the text written in Swedish right now, but please let me know if you have some problems understanding the basics of the text. Some of the Swedish texts concern filiations between parents and their children.
 
Henrik
1  
Jöns Jönsson Gisberg. Born 22 October 1757 in Veta, Veta sn. (Father 2, Mother 3)  
Generation I
 
2 f  
Peter Jönsson Gisberg. Petter. Ska vara född i Gistad 1725, son till en Jöns Andersson och hans hustru Kristina Persdotter. Passar utmärkt. Moderns namn ej uppgivet i fb dock.  
  Baptised 27 January 1725 in Blistad, Gistad sn. Died 7 July 1764 in Veta by, Veta sn. Buried där 15 July 1764. ... Klåckare och organist i Veta, född i Gista sn 1725 av Jöns Anderssons och Stina Persdr därstädes. Gift med Kerstin Persdr. Fader till 5 små barn, 4 döttrar och en son, varit nog sjuklig och werkfull de sista 2 åren. Död 39 år gammal.  
  Klockare och organist i Veta. Lived på Veta ägor, Veta sn -b1764-. (Child 1, Father 4, Mother 5)  
Married 11 October 1752 in Veta sn to the following ancestor. Klockare och organist Petter Jönsson Gisberg och pigan Kierstin Pärsdr i Kårarp.  
 
3 m  
Kerstin Persdotter. Born 22 September 1729 in Lilla Ljunga, Veta sn. Baptised där 23 September 1729. Lived på Veta ägor, Veta sn -b1764-. (Child 1, Father 6, Mother 7)  
Married 11 October 1752 in Veta sn to the previous ancestor. Klockare och organist Petter Jönsson Gå(i?)sberg och pigan Kierstin Pärsdr i Kårarp.  
 
 
Generation II
 
4 ff  
Jöns Andersson. I fb står Gäleby istället Älgeby eller Äleby. I kanten i fb står noterat: död 15/11 1769.  
  Baptised 7 May 1693 in Äleby, Gistad sn. Died 15 November 1769 in Fågeltorp, Gistad sn. ... Jöns Andersson i Fogelstorp, begrovs d 19 november. Född i Älgeby d. 7 maj år 1693, gift år 1719, avlat med sin hustru, nu änka, Kerstin Persdr 3 söner och 6 döttrar. Har levat i all sin tid kristligen och saktmodigt, under gudsfruktan. Varit i förra tider hjälpklockare här i församlingen. Efter 8 dagars sjukdom avled d. 15 november, 76 år 6 m___.  
  Bonde i Blistad, sedan bonde i Fågeltorp, hjälpklockare i Gistad. Bonde -f1722-.  
  Lived in Blistad, Gistad sn -f1725-. Lived in Fågeltorp, Gistad sn -f1731-h64-h67-.  
  Fågeltorp anges i hfl 1763-64 vara frelse till Halleby [eller Hälleby?]. (Child 2, Father 8, Mother 9)  
Married 18 October 1719 in Gistad sn to the following ancestor. Präst?drängen Jöns Andersson med pigan Kerstin Pedersdotter. MG: 12 lod silver och 2 dukater.  
 
5 fm  
Kristina Persdotter. Born 1696 in Rännefjälla, Lillkyrka sn (enl db). Died 17 August 1772 in Fågeltorp, Gistad sn. ... änkan hustru Kerstin Persdotter i Fogelstorp, begrovs d 23 augusti, född i Renfiella i Lillkyrka socken 1696, haft 9 barn, varit på sista åren sjuk vattusot...  
  Lived in Blistad, Gistad sn. Lived sedan in Fågeltorp, Gistad sn -f1734-h64-. (Child 2)  
Married 18 October 1719 in Gistad sn to the previous ancestor. Präst?drängen Jöns Andersson med pigan Kerstin Pedersdotter. MG: 12 lod silver och 2 dukater.  
 
6 mf  
Per Månsson. Born 20 November 1701 in Lilla Ljunga, Veta sn. Baptised där 26 November 1701. Died 6 February 1784 på Stora Ljunga ägor, Veta sn. ... Gamle sockneman... född 1701 av Måns Pärs och Brita Månsdr i Lilla Ljunga. Gift 1719 med Brita Ericsdr. Fader till 4 söner och 7 döttrar. Var en hedersam danneman. Ärlig och gudfruktig. De sista åren inhyses hos sina barn. Haft fattigdel i 10 år. Sängliggande av ålderdom i 3ne år, och dog 83 år gammal.  
  Bonde i Lilla Ljunga, sedan i Kårarp, sedan inhyses. Lived in Kårarp, Veta sn -b1764-.  
  Dopvittnen:  
    1736: bl a Jöns Pärsson i Västerlösa... (Child 3, Father 12, Mother 13)  
Married 26 December 1720 in Veta sn to the following ancestor. Dräng i L Ljunga och pigan ibm.  
 
7 mm  
Brita Eriksdotter. Kallas Anna Erichsdr i fb 1725.  
  Born 1699 in Lilla Ljunga norrgård, Veta sn (edb).  Died 20 June 1764 in Kårarp, Veta sn. Buried där 24 June 1764.  
    Per Månssons k hustru, född i Lilla Ljunga norrgården 1699 av Eric Andersson och Carin Persdr. Gift 1720. Moder åt 4 söner och 7 döttrar. 3 söner och 5 döttrar leva. De sista åren nög sjuklig mest av huvudvärk. Död 66 år gammal.  
  Lived in Lilla Ljunga, Veta sn. Lived in Kårarp, Veta sn.  
  Boumao 1764 26/6: 8 barn: Måns Persson på Veta ägor, Erik Persson i Kårarp, Anders Persson på Mantorps ägor, Maja gm Jöns Jonsson i Eketorpet, Sya, Karin gm Frösten Samuelsson i Råckarp, Veta, Kerstin gm Peter Gisberg på Veta ägor, Anna gm Håkan Eriksson i Mjärdevid, Hogstad sn och Lena gm Henrik Persson i Mörby, Viby sn... (Child 3, Father 14, Mother 15)  
Married 26 December 1720 in Veta sn to the previous ancestor. Dräng i L Ljunga och pigan ibm.  
 
 
Generation III
 
8 ff f  
Anders Jönsson. Bonde i Äleby. Lived in Äleby, Gistad sn -f1693-. (Child 4)  
Married 26 February 1693 in Gistad sn to the following ancestor. Anders Jönsson och Marie Nilsdotter i Gäleby. Morgongåvan in alles 12 lod silver.  
 
9 ff m  
Maria Nilsdotter. Jag har antagit att den Anders Jönsson som får barn i maj 1693 i Äleby (Gäleby) är identisk med den som gifter sig 1693 26/2 med denna Maria Nilsdotter. Bör kollas upp vidare.  
  Lived antagligen in Äleby, Gistad sn. (Child 4)  
Married 26 February 1693 in Gistad sn to the previous ancestor. Anders Jönsson och Marie Nilsdotter i Gäleby. Morgongåvan in alles 12 lod silver.  
 
12 mf f  
Måns Persson. Born o 1666. Died 10 July 1720 in Lilla Ljunga, Veta sn. Buried 17 July 1720. ... 54 år gammal.  
  Bonde i Lilla Ljunga. Lived in Lilla Ljunga, Veta sn.  
  Dopvittnen:  
    bl a Anders Månsson i Grimstorp, Per Hemmingsson i Olstorp, h Ingrid Nilsdotter i Gottlösa...  
  En Månses son NN, begravs den 17/1 1708 - det kan nog röra sig om sonen Anders född 1707. (Child 6)  
Married to the following ancestor.  
 
13 mf m  
Brita Månsdotter. Lived in Lilla Ljunga, Veta sn. (Child 6)  
Married to the previous ancestor.  
 
14 mm f  
Erik Andersson. Av dopvittnesuppgifter att döma bror till Anna Andersdotter (gift med Johan Börjesson), och med så stor sannolikhet son till Anders Larsson i Nederlösa att jag sätter det så. Denne Anders Larsson förefaller också mycket lämpligt flytta till Lilla Ljunga. Erik ska vara född omkring 1663 och 1662 får denne Anders en son Erik. Anna ska vara född omring 1665 och just detta år får Anders en dotter Anna.  
  Baptised 17 August 1662 in Nederlösa, Normlösa sn. Buried 2 January 1737 in Lilla Ljunga, Veta sn. ... 73 år gammal.  
  Bonde i Lilla Ljunga. Lived in Lilla Ljunga, Veta sn -1686-m95-.  
  Erik ska enl dödnotisen för dottern Brita, ha varit bosatt i Lilla Ljunga norrgård [åtm 1699].  
  Dopvittnen:  
    1686: h Brita Svensdotter, Lars Nilson i Kårarp.  
    1704? Ifwar Larsson i St Ljunga och dess son Per ibm. Erik Månsson i Mörby, h Anna i FogelsångenBritta Erichsdotter och Anna Håkansdotter i Mörby. (Child 7, Father 28, Mother 29)  
Married 1st to the following ancestor.  
Married 2nd 28 December 1719 in Veta sn to Karin Sunesdotter. EA i L Ljunga, piga.  
 
15 mm m  
Karin Nilsdotter. Kallas Persdotter i db för dottern Brita.  
  Died 11 May 1719 in Lilla Ljunga, Veta sn. Lived in Lilla Ljunga, Veta sn -f1686-död. (Child 7)  
Married to the previous ancestor.  
 
 
Generation IV
 
28 mm ff  
Anders Larsson. Det passar utmärkt att den Anders Larsson, som jag är närmast säker på är far till bl a Anna Andersdotter i Egelstad och Erik Andersson i Lilla Ljunga, är identisk med den Anders Larsson som åtminstone 1678 [mtl] är bosatt i Lilla Ljunga. Jag sätter det så. Hans gårdsbruk tas sedan över av den antagne sonen Erik Andersson.  
  Died 1694 in Lilla Ljunga, Veta sn (kyrkräkenskaper). ... Testamente Anders i Liunga 1 D. enligt 1694 års kyrkoräkenskaper i Veta, daterade 16 november.  
  Bonde i Nederlösa, sedan säkerligen i Lilla Ljunga. Lived in Nederlösa, Normlösa sn -fb1657-fb65-fb67-m71-. Lived in Lilla Ljunga, Veta sn -m1678-ky1686-.  
  Är ej i Nederlösa i mantal 1673.  
  I mtl 1678 bor Anders Larsson där med en änka hustru Kerstin, Anders står på samma rad efter henne. [Kerstin hette Arvidsdotter och var änka efter Nils Carlsson i Lilla Ljunga].  
  Enligt stoldelningslängd 1686 den 28 oktober var bönderna i Lilla Ljunga följande: Nilss Torson, Peer Börjesson ibid, Anderss Larsson ibid. Lilla Ljunga-borna ska sitta på första raden.  
  Dopvittnen:  
    1657:Anders Uddsson i Nederlösa, Jöns Månsson ibidem, Måns Perssons son i Alkarp Nilss b.d., item Gudmoder h Anna Gudmund Bruns i Sperringe och hennes dotter Capitenens Per Anderssons dotter i Mörby Maria, och Lars Nilssons dotter i Nederlösa.  
    1660: Magnus Petri i Normelös, Lars Nilsson i Nederlösa och Bengt Håkonsson ibidem, item Maria Månsdotter i Alkarp, Karin Andersdotter i Prestegården, Anna Håkansdotter och Kirstin Jönsdotter i Nederlösa.  
    1662: Corneten Gudmund Brun i Späringe, Jon Pedersson i Nederlösa, Anders Erichsson ibidem, item h Cherstin Anders Uddssons, Anna Jönsdotter, An__ Jonsdotter och Eelin Andersdotter.  
    1665: Håkan Bengtsson, Nils Erichsson ibidem och en dräng Jöns N., item h Anna i Hasla, Cicilia Persdotter i Nederlösa och Ingeborg ibidem.  
    1667: Carl Håkansson, Måns Jonsson, h Marid Håkansdotter, Karin Nilssdotter. (Child 14)  
Married to the following ancestor.  
 
29 mm fm  
Anna Persdotter. Paret Anders Larsson och Anna Persdotter har helt säkert något att göra med Måns Perssons i Alkarp familj, så mycket som de förekommer som dopvittnen. Det skulle ju kunna vara så att Anna är dotter till Per Munck och alltså syster till Måns Persson i Alkarp. Verkar inte alls otroligt.  
  Kan hon vara släkt med kapten Per Andersson Pik adlad Pikenhielm? Han förekommer som dopvittne, med en dotter. Kanske dotter till denne Per Andersson i ett tidigare gifte än det med Brita Bengtsdotter. Verkar inte särdeles sannolikt.  
  Born o 1628. Buried 5 June 1667 in Nederlösa, Normlösa sn. ... h Anna Pedersdotter i Nederlösa 39 år gammal, och lades öster om kyrkan.  
  Lived in Nederlösa, Normlösa sn -m1657-m61-död. (Child 14)  
Married to the previous ancestor.

[Henrik Mosén]

Joyce:
 
By the way, I would appreciate some more detailed data regarding Jöns Persson, his wife, children and so on. If you happen to have the time...
 
Henrik

[Joyce Philpot]

Henrik:
 
I am new to genealogy so I have simply concentrated on the basics - births-deaths-marriages- etc.. Right now I don't have a lot of data past that. Perhaps when I become more proficient at genealogy, I will be able to get more information for you.
 
Joyce

[Joyce Philpot]

Henrik:
I have a question for you. I found Kierstin Persdotter - GID:406.2.27200. I had someone interpret the birth date as 1722 with a date of the 14th. The month is hard to read. How does one determine that the 1729 birth date is the correct person? There is also a reference on the page to Pår Mansson, but I can't decipher the writing.
Thanks,
 
Joyce

[Bernhard Johanson]

It seems the month is '2' , but the figure is crossed over and what could be '6' is written after it.
 
This person is a widow (Enk.) and was married to someone named Petter (the sons last name Pettersson). You could find her by cross checking the birth-, marriage- and death (C) records. Her family might be found in the 'husförhör'(AI) records for various years. Note that errors in birth dates are notorious in the husförhör records though.
 
Pär Månsson får fattigvård = gets social care, that is, the community pays the family for taking care of him, he is not necessarily related to them.

[Joyce Philpot]

Henrik:
Now I am really confused. I checked the birth records of the son and daughter on the household record.
Jons - 406.17.76200 and Catharina - 406.17.76800. Both list Petter Gisberg as the father. What set me thinking was a birth record for a Kierstin - 406.16.57200 - February 15, 1722. It looks like the father's first name was Pår, but the last name is illegible.
I probably have both of us confused now.
 
Regards,
 
Joyce

[Bo Johansson]

Pär and Petter might be different ways of writing the same name (or it might be two different men).
 
// Bo Johansson

[Joyce Philpot]

Bo:
I think I solved the puzzle. I found a death record for Kierstin Persdotter and it say birth year was 1729. 406.18.102400
Thanks for taking time to help.
 
Regards,
 
Joyce

[Joyce Philpot]

Henrik:
I was doing very well with the information you gave me until I got to  14mm f Erik Andersson. I had a little trouble with the translation and figuring out where he fits in. Can you give me some help? I would appreciate it.
 
Regards,
 
Joyce

[Joyce Philpot]

Olle:
 
I need your help again. GID:340.15.78000 has a notation for Adolph Alfrid near the bottom of the page. Since he is a child, I hope it is a clue to something else. Also, what is the significance of the numbers in the notation column for Cajsa Andersdotter? They appear to be dates, but I don't know what they refer to.
You have been so helpful and I appreciate it.
 
Joyce

[Olle Andersson]

Joyce!
 
I cannot decipher the notation for Adolph Alfrid - will ask others.
 
As for the dates in Cajsa's notation it could be absolution those dates - noted as abs. in the preceding column.
 
Interesting to see in Birth Book GID 340.32.42900 Birth Date October 1st and name Carl Johan Alfrid .. I believe it's the same boy!
 
Olle

[Joyce Philpot]

Olle:
 
Once again I come to you for help. GID:340.44.65800 there is a notation for Adolf Ullstam(line 18). It appears to reference his marriage but I can't make out the last line. Also GID:340.49.43500 there is a notation for Casja Andersdotter(line 2). The only word I could recognize was Ullstam.
 
Thanks.
 
Joyce

[Olle Andersson]

Joyce!
Tried to decipher the lines but more a question of readibility ...
 
line 18:
I believe the last line says Exerat 61 55/2 My guess - Exerat beeing a latin term probably like extract/excerpt from
 
Line 2:
Top line Haft flera o. (oäkta) barn =Had several children out of wedlock
Second line  bor hos Ullstam i Nyk.
                 n. omr.
 lives with Ullstam in Nyköping
                northern area
 
The last words Ulf fri does not ring a bell.
 
Hope others give it a try!
 
Olle

[Sten Tegfors]

The last word Ulf fri maybe means he has been released from paying the tax ? If he is old that can be the case.
Sten

[Elisabet Arvidsson]

Hi.
Did Ulf have a debt to pay to an other person?
Has he been judge to something that he need to work out?
Sometimes fri means skuldfri = free from debt.
 
You need to look in the earlier year maybe up to 20 year to find out.
Good luck.
elisabet

[Lotta Nordin (Lotta)]

Hi,
the last line for Cajsa says Utf. fri. It means that she was very poor and didn't have to pay any taxes. Utf stands for utfattig=very poor.
 
The text about Cajsa:

I'm not sure it says Nyk. The word seems to end with holm.
 
regards
Lotta