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Författare Ämne: Äldre inlägg (arkiv) till 2006-05-06  (läst 1696 gånger)

2006-02-26, 11:20
läst 1696 gånger

Utloggad Christina Backman

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One shown, ten seen. Rather like making a mountain out of a molehill but it would be easier if you gave us more of the context. An unusual saying at any rate.

2006-02-27, 20:25
Svar #1

Utloggad Charles LaVine

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Elisabeth,
 
The original diary is on loan to the Minnesota Historical Society from the Goodhue County Historical Society, which is the legal owner. Therefore, I must work on its translation at the State Historical Society.
 
They probably do have the capability to scan but unfortunately the quality of the text is very uneven. Roos has written with a variety of inks, mostly analin-based, and they have faded so getting good copy is problematic at best. I often must use a magnifying glass to puzzle things out although Roos writes a very good hand.
 
I will go back and copy the entire sentance in which the proverb appeared and get back to you. Thursdays are my days that I generally am able to work on it.
 
Again to all, thanks for your interest and help.
 
Charles

2006-03-02, 01:46
Svar #2

Utloggad Charles LaVine

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To all:
 
Here is the phrase that TEDD and SEDD appeared in:
 
 Ännu har jag icke blivit befriat från ohyran löss. Nils Abrahamson har även blivit beskard sin andel af samma slägte och naturligtvis blev jag skyld före, att jag härtill wore skuld, en sak som är mycket problematiskt emedan jag så snart kunnat i sednare dagar fått denna present af honom, men den som blir “med ett TEDD, blir tio SEDD”, sager ordspråk.”
 
Your translation of the proverb in this setting?
 
Mvh,
 
Charles

2006-03-02, 18:50
Svar #3

Utloggad Christina Backman

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If you see one, you imagine ten more. That is,having seen one flea you suppose there must of course be more to it than that and so you blame the writer for spreading vermin.  
 
Doesn?t that make sense to you?

2006-03-04, 23:20
Svar #4

Utloggad Charles LaVine

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To all:
 
Thanks for the help on TEDD and SEDD.
 
I have another proverb or idiomatic phrase for you to puzzle over, namely:
 
FARA ÄR WÄRDT, att wi icke redan fått smaka på denna ambrosiadryck i avseend till härförut warande regnskurar.
 
Danger is worth the risk???
 
Charles

2006-03-05, 01:37
Svar #5

Utloggad Anna-Carin Betzén

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This idiom is often seen in the form det är fara värt att [...] means there's a risk that [...].

2006-03-11, 02:19
Svar #6

Utloggad Charles LaVine

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To all,
 
I have another phrase that I wonder how to translate into comparable English. It is:
 
“Amerika är ändå ett härligt, jordiskt land. En gång kommer hit, blifwa  menniskarne gudfruktiga och ärliga, det sednare MED ETT STORT “O”, framföre.
 
Upon thinking about it, the “O” could be an “A”, but that is a stretch.
 
Will appreciate your comments on this one.
 
MVH,
 
Charles

2006-03-11, 05:36
Svar #7

Utloggad Thomas Vikander

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My suggestion:
 
America is yet a wonderful country.  
Once here, people turn godfearing and honest, THE LATTER WITH A BIG DIS IN FRONT.
 
The letter is an O.
 
Refinements most welcome.

2006-03-11, 05:47
Svar #8

Utloggad Thomas Vikander

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OOPS. The above should have been:
 
America is yet a wonderful, down to earth country.  
Once here, people turn godfearing and honest, THE LATTER WITH A BIG DIS IN FRONT.

2006-03-11, 08:56
Svar #9

Utloggad Irma Ridbäck

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Hi,
 
Instead of 'down to earth' I would suggest
wonderful, earthly country.  
In that case 'earthly' means 'belonging to this transitory world as opposed to heaven', and in another sense: 'discoverable by mortal man'.

2006-03-11, 12:39
Svar #10

Jan Ek (Janek)

Charles,
 
Med ett stort O translated into with a big O is a very old qualifying expression. It is added to other statements to make them stronger.
 
It is still in frequent use in modern Swedish as also a Google-search suggests. I have used it since childhood myself. While the usage today seems limited to situations where the noun involved really is a word starting with the letter o, I suspect it was originally attached to just any really important statement, as in your example when it is connected with ärlig - honest. In this way your writer wants to make sure we think of honest in its very best and strongest meaning of the word.
 
The etymology of the expression is unknown to me, but my best guess is it's based on the fundamental respect for ordet, the word, as in the word of the Bible. In old biblical text the word, is also God's will and when used in that particular meaning always spelled with a capital O in respect of God.
 
Examples of modern usage could be:
 
That is an organisation with a big O - a really big organisation.
 
and then we took the detour (omvägen) with a big O - a detour that took us very far from the shortest route.
 
Also, and hopefully not offending anyone with this example of modern language usage - the orgasm with a big O. A long way from it's religous roots indeed .
 
Please accept that I am really a linguistic amateur with no real academic credentials. I'm not saying this is the perfect explanation, but it is my best take. For a supporting reference I attach a link, a letter written by Athanasios to Serapion from year 350.

2006-03-11, 14:35
Svar #11

Utloggad Anna-Carin Betzén

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In my view, organisation med (ett) stort O is exactly the same expression as capital-O Organization, and I think it could be used with any letter; capital-B Book, capital-M Money, and so on. A quick google for med stort a, med stort b etc yielded several hits - each many more than med stort o did. But I very much doubt that that expression has anything to do with the similar phrase in Roos' diary, which is clearly adding a twist to the previous phrase by negating rather than emphasizing the word honest.
 
Jan, I enjoyed reading your theory about the expression's origin! It may very well be correct.

2006-03-11, 14:41
Svar #12

Jan Ek (Janek)

... and I agree with Irma. One possible translation of the whole sentence I can suggest is  
 
America is yet a wonderful, earthly country. Once here, people turn godfearing and honest - and that is Honest with a capital H.
 
This sounds all quite modern in my ears, but saving the flavour of the old Swedish in the translation is rather impossible.

2006-03-11, 14:58
Svar #13

janek

Anna-Carin,
 
If I'm allowed to speculate further.  
I think the phrase and usage with a capital A and so on for every letter is a result of the disconnection of the expression from the religious root, at least in Swedish. Or we are inspired by the English usage.
 
Allwords.com suggest the English etymology as meaning 'relating to the head': French, from Latin capitalis, from caput head
 
My gut feeling is still that med (ett) stort o has a separate root/background than the modern usage we see in both Swedish and English. It would be interesting to put this question to linguists in both languages.
 
I feel a little stupid on your last comment, I can't see the diary usage as a negation at all ??

2006-03-11, 18:04
Svar #14

Utloggad Anna-Carin Betzén

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Jan,
You may very well be right that it all started with O and then spread throughout the alphabet. Like you say, we'd need to find a linguist to possibly get an answer. SAOB mentions that stort is used för att förstärka l. framhäva substantivet (föremålet för ngns intresse), i sådana uttr. som Konsten med stort K, Musiken med stort M but doesn't quote any examples with dates.
 
In effect, the diary sentence says ärliga, med ett stort O framför, and putting 'o' before ärliga yields oärliga (dishonest).  If he meant Ärliga rather than oärliga, I think he would've written med ett stort Ä framför.
 
Charles,  
You said the 'O' possibly could be an 'A', but could it be an 'Ä' as well? If so, that would support Jan's point of view. Also, have you seen indications that the diarist could be a little ironical at times, which I personally think is the case here? IMHO, this would explain why he added the 'O' like he did instead of writing oärliga straight away.

2006-03-18, 22:21
Svar #15

Utloggad Charles LaVine

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To All:
 
Regarding my question “med ett stort O”, it definitely is an “O”. I have decided to literally translate it as with “with a capital “O” and then footnote it as being an old Swedish method of placing particular emphasis on a specific word, much similar to our English practice of emphasis, i.e “culture with a capital “C”, osv.  
 
Thanks for an interesting and enlightening discussion.
 
I now have some more to clarify. Again the Swedish words I can't translate are CAPITALIZED.
 
“hwarför trosbrodren Sandberg, hwilken som nu warrande på guard, war mycket INKIETTE öfver att ware förhindrat här deltaga”
 
The sense of the story is that Sundberg claims that he had wanted to volunteer for a scouting assignment.
 
Another one:
 
“som man befunnit att hela NÄGDEN häromkring är mycket osund.”
 
Roos relates that the regiment had moved its camp because of the unhealthy conditions they had been occupying.
 
And
 
“Latheten PLÄR nästan alltid wara förargelse”
 
Roos was complaining about the laziness of some of his comrades-in-arms.
 
I again would appreciate your input.
 
MVH
 
Charles

2006-03-19, 00:46
Svar #16

Utloggad Karin Ekeroth

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Charles,
 
The first word doesn?t come to my mind. Needs a bit of thought and sound guessing,
 
nägden = nejden: the district, the neighborhood, the surroundings
 
plär = plägar: usually is, generally is
 
mvh
Karin

2006-03-19, 00:54
Svar #17

Utloggad Karin Ekeroth

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Hello again Charles,
 
I just needed to look the word up in my dictionary. It?s a word I have never used or even read before. Something new...
inkiett: impatient, concerned
 
Good luck !
 
Karin

2006-03-19, 09:14
Svar #18

Utloggad Karin Ekeroth

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And again,
 
The word area would probably fit in on nägd
 
Karin

2006-03-19, 13:33
Svar #19

Utloggad Ing-Marie Haglund

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Charles,
I have a comment on the expression with a capital O. In 1987 I moved from the south of Sweden to the north, where they frequently use the letter O before a verb expressing negation. But no grammer without exceptions for one day a friend told med she had to clean her flat because it was o-stökig. Stökig means untidy in Swedish so I asked her why? Her answer was that she used the expression to emphasize that her flat was very very untidy.  
 
Since most (Swedish)dialects often preserve older swedish language Jan\s explanation seems quite correct.  
 
Best regards,
 
Ing-Marie, who spent the summer of 1987 in the Twin cities

2006-03-19, 19:37
Svar #20

Utloggad Ingela Martenius

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INKIETTE is from the French inquiet. Not from the English word, since the pronociation in SAOB is given as [inkiät] or [änkiät].
Simply means worried.
 
As for the discussion about ärlig or oärlig: it can ultimately only be decided from the context. Has the writer experienced mainly honest or mainly dishonest people in America? In which context does the sentence occur? Is it as a comment after relating a story about especially honest or dishonest people? Does the writer usually express himself in a satirical or ironic way?
My personal guess - without context - is that the writer means dishonest. If you want to emphasize how clever a person is you'd write klok med ett stort K (smart with a capital S) - you'd not write klok med ett stort K framför (smart with a capital S in front).
SAOB gives absolutely no explanation or examples where oärlig means anything but dishonest. The earliest example is from 1560, and there are a couple from the 19th century.
 
Ingela

2006-03-19, 20:05
Svar #21

Utloggad Thomas Vikander

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Charles, regarding 'stort O',
I suggest we are at a disadvantage here, offering translations a sentence or two at a time. This can work only so long; then we have to sit back and appraise the overall context of the paragraph(s).  
We have not yet had that context presented to us.
Is Roos asserting, in the surrounding paragraphs that something happens in America to immigrants that has them  turning honest ,big time, or becoming dishonest, big time?
Is he elsewhere praising an America that imparts honesty values or is he warning Swedes back across the Atlantic to expect quite the opposite?
 
In passing, thank you for the work you are doing. Translating is tough dogged work!
 
Best regards,
Thomas V.

2006-03-20, 20:49
Svar #22

Utloggad Charles LaVine

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Thomas and all,
 
Again, thanks for your continued interest and help.
 
Thomas, you are correct. I proably am putting you all to disadvantage by not giving you better sentance context withing the story.
 
I suspicion that what I am translating is not Roos' original field diary but a more extensive later rewrite of his field diary. The basic condition is too good.
 
Roos is a very good observer, in fact what he relates is quite accurately reflected in the official history of the 3rd Minnesota, which was not written antil the 1890s. In fact, he gives detailns not noted in this history.
 
Roos is obviously a complicated man. I think he is better educated than one would think, is possibly somewhat of a braggart, and obviously marches to a different drumme. Why would a man with wife and children at the age of 49 or 50 volunteer to be a private in the Civil War Union Army? And he appears to have no sambition for higher rank.
 
He was one of the party of three that founded the Vasa settlement in Goodhue County, Minnesota and was a founding member, according to its protokol of the Vasa Lutheran Church, but then turns to the Methodist faith. He also at times times denigrates his fellow Swedish conradesin-arms as to their zeal and bravery although he is quite proud of his Swedish heritage. Moreover, he appears to be quite angry and disappointed with the support his Vasa neighbors give to his wife and family, during his absence at war. And they apprear, by his words, to be in considerable need. FYI: In the Vasa Lutheran Church's 50th anniversay book, Vasa Illustrerta, he is briefly mentioned only as one of the founders of the community and one of its Cival War veterans.
 
Someone should transcribe his diary into Swedish. I am certain that many of you would find it interesting.
 
Again, thanks
 
Charles
 
PS: Only 8 more sections to translate.

2006-04-07, 01:44
Svar #23

Utloggad Charles LaVine

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To All:
 
I have some further questions. They are as follows:
 
1. “Wi får således uppföra nya bostäder och jag efter wanliga TABLATUREN får bliva huswill.”
 
and  
 
2. “Jag skulle just undra om det nu kan wara TILL MATTA åt mina kamrater, att jag icke eller lägga mig sjuk, utan för uträtta deras sklydigheter.”
 
and
 
3. “men jag wille andåcks  obehaglig heler och som jag yttrade mig  “gerna stå på post för annars räkning  BARAST jag sjelf fingo ware fredat för tadel”.”
 
4. A translation of TENEMENT, in this case used like “a body's physical attributes”.
 
Mvh,  
 
Charles LaVine

2006-04-07, 10:59
Svar #24

Utloggad Ann-Mari Bäckman

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Charles,
 
I think that BARAST is the same as ENDAST and BARA in Swedish, ONLY in English,
 
Ann-Mari Bäckman
Ann-Mari Bäckman

2006-04-07, 13:34
Svar #25

Utloggad Lars-Erik Gustavsson

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1. In modern Swedish we would say i vanlig ordning meaning as usual or according to the (old) rules. The word  
TABLATUR, origins from the the latin TABULA and means a (physical) table (like in the Ten Commandments Stone Tables) but also a general set of rules.  
 
2. TILL MATTA should be TILL MÅTTA and this means that something fits or is suitable, but also that something is enough or sufficient. The latter part of the sentence is for me a bit unclear so I am not sure about the meaning of the whole sentence.
 
3. I agree on Ann-Mari's explanation and I think the word is some kind of dialect or socio-dialect.
 
4. I think that TENEMENT is an English word.
 
Lars-Erik

2006-04-07, 16:22
Svar #26

Utloggad Ingela Martenius

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According to SAOB ( http://g3.spraakdata.gu.se/saob/ ):
 
TABLATUR: correct spelling is tabulatur; efter wanliga tablaturen was a set expression (after the usual fashion), first noted in 1621 but also as late as 1966! Tabulatur was (and still is?) most commonly used for transcribing music.
 
TILL MÅTTA: use or advantage; the sentence would be I just wonder if it would be of any use to my comrades... (or ... be an advantage to ...). First noted in 1543, also in 1635, 1710 and 1896.
 
BARAST: A very old variation of bara (only) since in 1899 it is noted as being no longer in use; the only example given is from the writings of Lasse Lucidor, in 1672.
 
TENEMENT: not in SAOB
 
I agree with Charles that Roos is a man with some education but above all I think he is an intelligent man (though not quite as intelligent as he thinks himself) who has picked up bits and pieces which he uses, sometimes accurately, sometimes not, since he does lack a higher formal education.
 
Ingela

2006-04-30, 21:14
Svar #27

Utloggad Charles LaVine

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To All:
 
Back again with a couple of more inquiries. Again the word(s) in question are in CAPS.
 
1. Jag will derföre äfven öppna mina klena WÄRSÅDRA fast icke uti så trefligt sällskap som Bellmans.
 
Roos then quotes a verse from Carl Michael Bellman.
 
2. Denna oförmodet feghet hos en del af hans manscap, gjorde honom för en momang något konfys, eller at than befruktade att det shulle snitta de övriga af hans command att äfven taga til JÖSSES PISTOLER och lemna honom ensam.
 
How would one translate JÖSSES PISTOLER? I suspect it is the equivalent of “to take flight” or “desert”.
 
Roos also uses the name STJERNELD. I have found the “Nordisk familjebok” on line but find no Stjerneld who he would be referring to. But I better give you all the full sentence so that you have the sense of the reference.
 
I also have several other words that I will have to get back to you all on.
 
Mvh,
 
Charles

2006-04-30, 23:08
Svar #28

Utloggad Elisabeth Thorsell

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1) In modern Swedish we would write versådra and mean a vein of poetry, it seems that he claims to be a poet, but not so good as Bellman.
 
2) Jösses pistoler might be a variation of the phrase ta till harvärjan, which literally means using the sword of the hare and is understood as that the best defence for a hare is to run away very quickly. Jösse is an old nickname for a hare.

2006-05-06, 22:05
Svar #29

Utloggad Charles LaVine

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To all:
 
I again request your help. The words in question are in CAPS.
 
1. Då nu mina gren gosar af missförstådd ambition, att finna sig SCHINERADE af mina ålderdom och började genast vid Fort Snelling att wilsa föra spektakel af mig.
 
2. ty det hade warit rätt problematiskt om de hemmavarande då tagit wara uppå mina tillhörigheter, hälst wänner Sandberg war ibland dem och war just KUSTIES för nedpackningen.
 
3. men det gingo fördem som STJERNELD skriver i wisan att herr Päder han sprang från sin hatt och stöfvelkragen fastnade i grinne”.
 
Who is or was Stjerneld?
 
All assistance appreciated. Thanks Elisabeth for your info.
 
Mvh,
 
Charles

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