A bit of Old Swedish

[Judie Lundgren]

Can anyone give an English translation to this fragment of a letter to a son in America from his family? It was written in 1879.
 
 
 
Judie

[Judie Lundgren]

I'm sorry! I guess I don't know how to post a jpg. Here is a URL to the letter:
 
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v645/quinndog/187910-13side2.jpg

[Britt Börjesson]

Hej,
I guess that there could be more elegant translations, but this will at least give you an idea of the content of the letter:
 
Thank you, dear brother, for the greetings in your letter in which I could see that you intended to take Ida's Lovisa to you, and she wrote also that she wanted to go to you, but since we have not had any letter from them since last winter, I don't know if she is with you or if she is with brother in law Berglund and sister Christin. He said that he wanted her to stay with them, she should go to confirmation class last winter, and I wrote to them that they could do as they pleased, but I thought it could be better for her to stay where she was, but dear brother if she is with you, I ask you to do what you can for her. You said that it would be better for us if we also came, and we wish many times that we were with you, but it has to wait. Carolin sends her greetings to uncle (mothers brother), she begun going to school in Åskog today. We have to stop now, with a thousand greetings from all of us to you. Farewell dear brother and child, write soon, I really don't like to wait for long, from C J Svenson.  
 
Hälsningar
Britt

[Judie Lundgren]

Thank you Britt! These letters have been translated three different times by acquaitances of my father, but I believe that each of them were English speakers that spoke some Swedish, with the exception of one young Swedish girl who admitted that she had difficulty reading Old Swedish and apologized.
 
None of the three could give a translation of Wintrase, and assumed that it was a place where Ida was attending school. No one else has mentioned confirmation. They translated it as school.  
 
This is very enlightening! Thank you so much.
 
Judie

[Michael Lundholm]

The translation  is based on the word starting Wintr*** is vintras, which is last winter. But then the last letter in the word and the initial capital W are not taken into account. It is not easy to read the jpeg-pciture and and its hard to distginguish between for instance a and o. But the word could be Wintrosa (modern spelling Vintrosa), a parish in Örebro län. Else in the letter capital letters are not used except for personal and place names. The phrase would then be ... go to confirmation class in Wintrosa .... Judie, do you have information about from where the letter was sent?

[Anna-Carin Betzén]

Judie,  
 
There are a few different Swedish expressions for going to confirmation class, that all have to do with reading. To express that someone goes to confirmation class you might say he/she goes reading, or reads for the parson. The SAOB dictionary also mentions 19th century examples of other phrases like reading to the Communion, and reading on the aisle.
 
The 1686 church law stated that the parson should teach the children to read and to understand Luther's Small Catechism. This was required to be eligible for communion. So for many years before Sweden's 1842 law about public schools, children learned to read in confirmation class, and I assume that is why phrases about reading are used to denote going to confirmation class in Sweden. No wonder your English speaking friends thought it had to do with school when they translated the phrase!

[Britt Börjesson]

Hej,
I thought when reading this letter, that it was written by a well educated person. There are not much of the phonetic spelling that I have seen in other old letters. The word wintrase is one of few exceptions, but I am quite sure that Idas daughter Lovisa, living with relatives in America, is not going to confirmation class near Örebro. Thank you Judie for sharing this letter and also the list of what your ancestor brought at emigration - very interesting!
Hälsningar
Britt

[Ingela Martenius]

Wintrase is probably not last winter since this phrase (vintras) is used, perfectly spelled, three rows up (ifrån dem i vintras). The letter is generally consistent in its choice of spelling (which by the way is quite good).
 
Confirmation did not mean that the children learnt to read. If they couldn't read, they were not allowed to begin reading (=studying) for the confirmation. The same goes for the famous 1842 law about public schools: you were expected to be able to read before you were allowed in school!
See e.g. books and articles written by dr Lars Petterson (PhD history at Uppsala university; his special subject is school history).
 
Ingela

[Eva Leksell]

I think the girl's name should be Ida Lovisa, as I can see no 's' after Ida.

[Judie Lundgen]

Interesting comments. My guess would be that this family, being poor farmers, were not well-educated. However, there is every indication that they were unusually intelligent because their descendants are quite intelligent! Just look at me. (just joking)
 
Yes, the tone of the letters I have seem to come from an educated person. Anna Lena wrote most of them, even though they are signed by her father C. J. Swenson.
 
My original scan of the letter is a high-quality tiff that is too large to post. I enlarged the area, and the word is very clearly Wintrase. It is mystifying why she would spell it differently in the second instance.
 
It sounds like Anna has not heard from her daughter since last winter. It seems that she might be saying something like Last winter he said that he wanted her to stay with them so that she could go to confirmation class...
 
It is an odd use of the word. That is why I wanted new opinions. Thank you for help with this puzzle.
 
Judie

[Michael Lundholm]

In my view Ingela's observation regarding vintras is quite compelling; it is certainly not ...last winter... If it is not ... in Wintrosa ... (but I cannot see that the information provided by Judie and in the letter exclude that possibility) I have no suggestion but another place name seems likely. Again, Judie, do you know from where the letter was sent? If it is close to Örebro I think the case is settled, if not some new hypotheses are needed.

[Chris Bingefors]

Having looked at the letter again, I think Wintrase is an original misunderstanding ca 1880. The word refers to something Christina (in America) said in a letter about Ida (in America)ie reading for her confirmation. Wintrase is probably vintras (last winter) written in Americanized Swedish, after several years in America Christina?s spelling has changed. Anna Lena, the mother in Sweden, not recognizing the word, has misunderstood this to be a place name. Not strange at all, they had never heard or seen a word of English, with its, to us, very weird spelling rules.

[Judie Lundgren]

Michael, the letter was sent from Åkerslund under Rösås, Södre H., Bäckaby, Småland, Jönköpings Län. It was written by Anna Lena to her sister in St. Peter, Minnesota, USA. The child in question is living in America, so Wintrase cannot be a place in Sweden. I also have wondered if Wintrase is a place, but it would have to be in America. I have studied the map of places near St. Peter, and there is nothing at all that is spelled or sounding like Wintrase. But, your idea that it must be a place is very reasonable.
 
Chris, your thoughts sound quite reasonable, too. The previous use of the word vintras is used and spelled correctly, so one would expect a second use of the same word to be the same. The second use of the word starts with a capitalized W and an e is added. It could be a misunderstood word from a letter. Interesting.
 
Judie

[Michael Lundholm]

OK, Vintrosa is not the interpretation. Still, given Ingela's observation I think that a place name is the most likely.