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Författare Ämne: Another puzzle  (läst 1059 gånger)

2006-08-15, 05:08
läst 1059 gånger

Judie Lundgren

I'm certain that this will turn out to be another simple thing I could have found somewhere. I've tried and now give up and come to the good people here.
 
The year is 1828. Daniel is 15 years old. What is the abbreviation to the left of his name? It doesn't look like dräng. I'm stumped. Also, his last name is not written, nor that of his brother Pehr, and the lines on each side of Pehr's name seem odd. Any ideas?
 
Thanks in advance!
 



2006-08-15, 05:38
Svar #1

Lars Larsson

Hi Judie!
 
I'm not sure if this is right but it can be.
 
Under their mother,
 
Dess Son Daniel , and Dess means its.
 
The lines on each side of Pehr it means that it's the same thing as at Daniel.
Like this,
- Pehr - or Its Son Pehr.
 
I hope you understand what I try to explain
here Judie.
 
Maybe someone else has another explanation.
 
 
Sincerly
 
Lars Larsson
Sidney, BC
Canada

2006-08-15, 11:02
Svar #2

Utloggad Anna-Carin Betzén

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Judie, I think as a rule a child's last name (or patronymic) isn't specified in the household exams as long as it lives with its parents. If it was ever needed, it could be derived from the context.

2006-08-15, 18:04
Svar #3

Judie Lundgren

That makes sense, Lars. Thanks.
 
Anna-Carin, the reason I asked is that the father, who died in 1820, used the surname Phragm?n. As far as I know, Daniel never used that name. He used the patronymic Carlson. I just wondered if he had ever been known as Phragm?n. In the context of this particular entry, what would one expect he was using as his last name at that time?
 
Judie

2006-08-15, 22:52
Svar #4

Utloggad Thomas Vikander

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Hello Judie,
From the looks of the copy from the HFL Book that you have provided, it looks as if Jacob Phragmen (Phragmoen? 2 dots over the'o') and (the former widow) Brita Larsdotter are now married and together have had two boys.
 
In 1828, the boys would usually be known by their last name: 'Jacobsson'. It will be interesting for you to find when in the future Daniel started being identified as a 'Carlson'.  
Since Jacob died early in the boys' lives, who helped raise them? Perhaps an uncle named 'Carl'? Just a speculation.
What surname did Pehr eventually use?
Did Brita perhaps marry once again after Jacob died? Someone named 'Carl'? ....and they raised the boys?
When did she die?
While you check the last one, see if you can confirm her marriage to Jacob and carefully read Jacob's last name for its spelling.
 
Have fun!
Thomas V.

2006-08-16, 00:06
Svar #5

Judie Lundgren

Hi Thomas!
 
If you look carefully, you will see that Brita is the widow of Carl Jacob Phragm?n. The Carl runs into the previous word, which looks like Modren. As far as I can tell, Brita never remarried before her death in 1853.
 
The last name of Phragm?n is well-documented in the spelling. I don't know why the ? was used. The name was originally Phragmenius but changed over time.
 
I haven't followed Pehr as yet. The eldest son in the family, Carl, is the only one I have found so far using the Phragm?n surname.
 
Cheers,
Judie

2006-08-16, 05:41
Svar #6

Utloggad Thomas Vikander

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Does his name appear elsewhere as Carl Jacob Phragmen? If it does then this would be the Carl in the boys' surname Carlsson.
I had thought of the offchance that the word/s before Jacob could be Mandscarl meaning Manadskarl, a man hired by the month.
 
Jacob's name looks as if it were added later above the widow Brita's name. I have seen this occur elsewhere.  
In the alternate, you indicate here and elsewhere today that they were married all along and had children previously. In the pic above it rather appears that he now shows up and is squeezed in above Brita's name, they have 2 boys, he dies, and the Minister pens in En. Enka. Widow. in front of her name.
 
Do check the Church's birth, marriage, death register. They will provide further insight, sometimes different spellings, different birthdates. I have also often found them more legible.
 
Regards,
Thomas V.

2006-08-16, 10:11
Svar #7

Utloggad Anna-Carin Betzén

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I seem to read a possessive 's' at the end of the first line, and I think Modren Carl Jacob Phragm?ns Enk. Brita Larsdotter makes sense.
 
If that's the case, the entry specifies that she's the boys mother, and who her late husband (and the boys' late father) was.

2006-08-16, 10:40
Svar #8

Judie Lundgren

Ah, that makes sense. I wondered about the ending. As I said, the name was originally Phragmenius, so I thought it could be the old spelling because of the s but there did not seem to be enough letters for that. I never considered the possessive. Good eye!

2006-08-16, 19:04
Svar #9

Utloggad Ingela Martenius

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The form Phragmenius was not used after about the mid 18th century. You have to put an  '  on the e in Phragm?n/Fragm?n since in Swedish people may otherwise start pronouncing it with a stress on the a; with an ? they know where to put the stress.
 
When the father has a double first name, like Carl Jacob, the children tend to use the first name for their patronymic, but it is not uncommon to see them use the second one. Also, in some cases the children are not agreed and out of e.g. eight children you may see five using the first name and three using the second one (and it isn't necessarily neatly divided so that the older children use one name and the younger another, it may well be a mix). And to confuse matters further, the children sometimes even change back and forth.
 
Since all of these people were farmers, it was probably thought a bit presumptious of them to use their ancestors' clerical surname, and so they usually probably used only patronymics. After some years, the surname was simply not written and left was only the patronymic. This process - from surname back to patronymic - usually takes a couple of generations.
In this case it seems that in each generation the child taking over the farm - which was called the Phragm?n farm (Phragm?ngården) - used the surname, as did the children who managed to get back to the clerical estate.
 
Some parishes actually wrote down the patronymic and/or surname (as applicable) of the children, most did not. Those who did not derived the patronymic/surname from the context, just as Anna-Carin says. And only in exceptional circumstances was a patronymic/surname used about a child not yet confirmed (i.e. younger than 15).
 
Ingela

2006-08-16, 20:27
Svar #10

Judie Lundgren

Very interesting, Ingela. Being fixated on the surname is useless, I know! I had wondered whether my Daniel had ever used Phragm?n, but it looks like he did not. Two of his brothers did and I hope to learn more about them.

2006-08-17, 01:40
Svar #11

Utloggad Thomas Vikander

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Extremely interesting information here. Thank you Lars, Anna-Carin, Ingela, for your input on the topic and for guidance where I was astray.
So that squeezed-in information is simply a descriptor of Brita---describing that she is the mother of the boys below, and the widow of Carl Jacob P.....
 
You have an interesting family to research there, Judie.

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