Need help with 1717-1723 household rcord

[Victoria Cihla]

Attached is a copy of a 1717-1723 household record for Tommaryd, Hinneryd parish in Kronoberg.  Can anyone help with the circled items?


What is the status of Kiersin Nilsdotter - is she a lodger/widow or ? 

Is Måns Andersson a son?  (it is hard to read)


https://app.arkivdigital.se/volume/v18565?image=15
Hinneryd (G) AI:1 (1717-1723) Image 15 / Page 9 (AID: v18565.b15.s9, NAD: SE/VALA/00133)

[Victoria Cihla]

Sorry - here's the attachment.

Vicki

[Jörgen Tollesson]

She is a widow. "E" = Enka.

Both Nils and Måns are her sons.

"son" Nils

"do" (= dito) Måns

[Victoria Cihla]

Thank you so much for clarifying!  I believe (for now anyway) that Kirstin Nilsdotter is the widow of the soldier Anders (no patronmic name so far).   She is listed as the soldier Anders' wife on the tax records for Tommaryd from 1691 through 1715 when she is listed there by name as Ryttåre's wife Kirstin - which seems to imply that Anders was still living in 1715.  The widow Kirstin died in 1737 and was born, according to her death record, in 1656.  I have not been able to find a death record for Anders so far.  I'm still researching him, hoping to find him in the military records, using the regiments suggested by Lennart.

1715 Mantal
https://app.arkivdigital.se/volume/v840174?image=1530&page=2043
Mantalslängder 1642-1820 Kronobergs län 1642-1820 (G) 50 (1715) Image 1530 / Page 2045 (AID: v840174.b1530.s2045, NAD: SE/RA/5520306)

Kirstin Nilsdotter's 1737 death record
https://app.arkivdigital.se/volume/v30628?image=298&page=585&register_collection=12&register_post_aid=r12.p122623719
Hinneryd (G) CI:1 (1712-1773) Image 298 / Page 585 (AID: v30628.b298.s585, NAD: SE/VALA/00133)

I am quite sure that Kirstin is the mother of the Måns Andersson born in 1700, and also the mother of Nils Andersson and the soldier Pehr (Andersson) Tåman who are all listed on the 1717-1723 household record.   But, I'm still trying to find my ancestor Corporal Måns Andersson's birthplace (Soldier #93 at Tommaryd in 1718). He was born ca 1688-1690.  Maybe he was also from Tommaryd.  Based on the age of Kirstin, it is possible that this Kirstin and this Anders could be the parents of Corp Måns Andersson Wåkman.  It is puzzling that both of the Måns Anderssons appear on the same GMR record in 1718 at Tommaryd under the solider number #93.   It's a mystery.   Were they siblings with the same name?  I have it seen in Norwegian research where one is referred to as the elder and one is the younger, but don't believe I've ever seen this in my Swedish research, where both were still alive. 

Little by little, I'm gathering the pieces to determine what is true.

Thanks for all the help!

Vicki

[Stefan Gelow]

Hello,

I don't know if you are still active here, but I have information about Måns Andersson Weckman that would probably be interesting.

In short, he seems to come from "Köpet" in Hinneryd, which means that he is the son of Anders Siggesson in Köpet, who in turn is the son of Sigge Andersson. I do not know the names of their wives.

The main reason for me saying this is court records from 1723 found below


Göta Hovrätt - Advokatfiskalen EVIIAAC:34 (1723) Bild 10230 / Sida 1013 (AID: v950377.b10230.s1013, NAD: SE/VALA/0382503)

What it says is that "Sven Andersson" in Flahult in Hinneryd (he dies in Flahult in 1742) sells in 1713, a part of the farm "Köpet" of his brother Måns Weckman, who is out to war, after a letter from 1712, to their brother-in-law Anders Nilsson in Vänneböke in Hinneryd. It does not say so here, but Anders wife is called Elin Andersdotter and she has several children with Anders Nilsson in Köpet after about 1710. It seems clear that they are all three from "Köpet" and it is not so difficult to find that Anders Siggesson is there for a long time, so he should be their father.

Apparently Måns Weckman married his wife Anna Jönsdotter at some point, but I have not been able to find when. She is obviously from Balkeryd in Torpa, so she is probably daughter to Jöns Jönsson and Sigrid in Balkeryd. Sigrid and her daughter Karin can be found in Torpa 1717-1723 and Karin is married to Hinneryd in 1724 with Lars Larsson i Skrubberyd. One of the children of hers has both Måns Weckman and Svenborg Månsdotter as witnesses, so it seems rather clear that Anna and Karin are sisters (or at least half-sisters).

Best regards
Stefan Gelow

[Lars-Ola Stare]

Hejsan Stefan and Victoria


Regarding Anders Siggesson in Kiöpet, I have noted Bengta Månsdotter (1649-1736) as his wife.


Sigge Andersson was married to Svenborg Andersdotter (last name from mantalslängderna, first name noted in court record)
Göta Hovrätt - Advokatfiskalen Kronobergs län (G) EVIIAAAD:14 (1641-1647) Bild 292 (AID: v49322.b292, NAD: SE/VALA/0382503)

Sigge Andersson was son of Anders Nilsson in Vänneböke Norregård, and potentially Elin Nilsdoter (mentioned in mantalängderna)

Regards,
Lars-Ola

[Victoria Cihla]

Hi Stefan and Lars-Ola,

Thank you VERY much for this new information!  I am always interested to learn more about my family.  This past week I joined DIS and yesterday began searching the DISBYT database to see if, perhaps, I can learn more from others researching the same people.  All of you have been most helpful!

Again, I really appreciate fascinating new information!

Vicki Cihla

[Stefan Gelow]

Lars-Ola, thanks! Very good information about Anders and Sigge!

But I must ask about how you connected Sigge to Vänneböke and his supposed parents, because that is not really clear to me.

First, I fully agree about Bengta Månsdotter. It doesn't seem explicitly stated anywhere that Bengta Månsdotter is the wife of Anders Siggesson, but it does seem apparent that she must be. When she dies in 1736, she is said to have been married for 32 years with one man and then widow for 34 years, which would mean she married Anders(?) around 1670 and he died around 1702. This seems exactly to fit with the oldest known son, Sven Andersson in Flahult born around 1672 as well as the fact that Anders was alive in 1700 (court records mentioned below, where he is said to be 66 years of age at that time) but does not seem to be alive after 1703 (since nothing is mentioned about him in the church records beginning around that time). The fact that Anders has a son named Måns also seems to fit with Bengta Månsdotter being his mother.

Hinneryd (G) CI:1 (1712-1773) Bild 297 / Sida 583 (AID: v30628.b297.s583, NAD: SE/VALA/00133)

My problem is with Sigge. It does seem from what you provide here that his wife Svenborg Andersdotter was the one from Köpet. I cannot find much about Sigge in Vänneböke however. The only thing I can find is a mention of a Sigge in Vänneböke in 1624 which very well could be Sigge Andersson (and I would believe it is), but the problem is that it seems to concern the inheritance from his father and how Sven Svensson in Skafta in Traryd has some of that still with him. This would mean, if Sigge is fråm Vänneböke, that his father was dead many years before the mantalslängd of 1642, so Anders Nilsson in Vänneböke could not be Sigges father. However, it also seems fully possible these are different people.

https://www.sunnerbo.nu/Sunnerbo-dombok-1624.s35

The court records from 1700 indicated above also talks about Sigge Andersson being "84" but is very vague about whether he is alive or not (he is said to have been present at a "synerannsakning" but not entirely clear if it was the one of 1699 or an earlier one), and it seems a bit too young for him to be 84 if Anders Siggesson is 66. In fact, he could be alive but being even older than is said (like 94 instead) if it was him in 1624, where he is probably just coming of age and maybe 20 or something.

Göta Hovrätt - Advokatfiskalen Kronobergs län (G) EVIIAAAD:42 (1699-1700) Bild 1920 / Sida 45 (AID: v206284.b1920.s45, NAD: SE/VALA/0382503)

However, I think I have missed things here, so I would be very happy to find out more!

***

By the way, Victoria, I think I have a slightly better picture now about the chronology of Måns, his marriage and his children. As you probably have seen, no marriages are specifically registered in Torpa before 1715, but the accounting for the church has earlier records where som marriages are indicated. Given this, I think the marriage of Måns and Anna Jönsdotter is in fact the one indicated "fastlagssöndagen 1709" (known as Quinquagesima or Esto mihi sometimes), which would have been 1709-03-01, where it says money was paid by "Brudg. from Kiöp" (which would be "groom from Köpet"). There is no Kiöp i Torpa, so this would likely be from Hinneryd.
Torpa (G) C:1 (1690-1747) Bild 35 / Sida 67 (AID: v30192.b35.s67, NAD: SE/VALA/00381)

Then, in Hinneryd, there is an indication of a child born to Måns in Köpet i 1710, which would fit well with this marriage. Måns is a soldier att this point (and mentioned on the left side of this page) and the 5th of June, there is "Soldhust. Anna i Kiöpet wid sin K:". Soldiers wife returning to church (after a birth). That normally happens around a month after the actual birth, which would indicate a birth in early May of 1710. This could very well be the birth of Svenborg Månsdotter, although there is probably no way to confirm that. By the way, I think the age of Måns in his death notice might be slightly off. He seems to be a bit too old to have been born in 1690. For example, he pays money as a "dräng" in Köpet in 1706 and then seems to get married in 1709. I would say that would make it more likely he is born around 1685 rather than 1690, although it is difficult to be completely certain.
https://sok.riksarkivet.se/bildvisning/C0024606_00052

Best regards
Stefan

[Victoria Cihla]

Hi Stefan,

Thank you very much for this update! I really appreciate the marriage information you found-  it fits perfectly.  You may also be correct that the child born in 1710 is Svenborg Månsdotter.  I had listed her birth date as circa 1712 which was based solely on her age (50 years old) at time of death on 1 Dec 1762.  This also fits well with their marriage date.   I had Måns' birth year as 1688 based on his GMR records.  There are a lot discrepancies on dates, 

Måns Andersson was a tricky one to follow.  I made a document, which is attached, noting much of what I have found on him - if you don't already have all of this information, I'll send links to anything you would like.  This document was intended to help me get an overview of his life.  I am happy to share any information that may be helpful to you.  If you have any questions/corrections - please let me know.

I will watch for Lar-Ola's response also.  This is always interesting.

Thanks again for this information.  I would not have been able to find it on my own! I have had much help along the way, for which I am very grateful!

Vicki

[Lars-Ola Stare]

Hejsan Stefan


Regarding Sigge Andersson and father Anders Nilsson, I have made the connection with the help of a court record from 1667 [size=78%]https://www.sunnerbo.nu/Sunnerbo-dombok-1667.s33[/size], where is talks about Segge Andersson at Kiöpet testifies that his late father Anders Nilsson in Vänneböke.


When it comes to Anders Nilsson I have some more to review, but he is mentioned in the taxrecord for 1660 in Vänneböke, and also in Älvsborgs lösen in the 1610s.


Not so sure that the Sigge mentioned 1624 is the same as Sigge Andersson, maybe a relative? for this I have nothing that supports it, just the feeling that Sigge would be quite young in 1624.




Yes, I would also say that Svenborg Andersdotter was from Kiöpet. Probably daughter of Anders Torkelsson and Elin Påvelsdotter who are mentioned in 1618 [size=78%]https://www.sunnerbo.nu/Sunnerbo-dombok-1618.s41[/size]


And maybe Anders Torkelsson was the son of Torkel mentioned in Kiöpet 1577.


Regards, Lars-Ola, Halmstad