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Författare Ämne: Broddetorp C:2 (1704-1761) bild 41, s. 115 (AD) b.46, s.113 (SVAR)  (läst 658 gånger)

2022-01-25, 02:03
läst 658 gånger

Utloggad Martha Wolf

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In the second marriage on Nov. 6, 1724, what is the word or words before Nils and what are the words after Pehrsdotter?
Thank you for any help
Martha

2022-01-25, 11:03
Svar #1

Utloggad Bertil Tunel

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This text is a real challenge, but let us take one step forward.
My interpretation is as follows:

dito wigdes drängen Nils i Broddetorp mäd pigan Britta
Pehrsdott. i Qwarnen och xxx xxx kyrcka.


The penultimate words are still enigmatic and maybe someone else has a solution.

2022-01-25, 11:55
Svar #2

Utloggad Jörgen Tollesson

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The missing words look like "skiedde i Skarckies".

Skarke is the old name of the nearby parish Varnhem. So maybe they prefered that magnificent church where old kings are buried...  :)

The date is Nov. 8.
 
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2022-01-25, 14:51
Svar #3

Utloggad Bertil Tunel

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Excellent information! Knowledge of local history and place names is often crucial. I fully support your interpretation!
/Bertil

2022-01-26, 02:48
Svar #4

Utloggad Martha Wolf

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Thank you, Bertil and  Jörgen for your suggestions. However, I have some questions. (My cranky computer just wiped out my three paragraph reply, so will try again).


Would a clerk record a widower, who had been paying taxes for over 20 years on one of the two land divisions of Broddetorp, as a "dräng"?  I have numerous tax records for him and for the births of his children by Brita and he is never labeled a dräng.  I think the three letters after the large[size=78%] ink blot resemble the nkl in änkl. several lines above. Is it perhaps änkling, written out and not abbreviated or [/size]is there another descriptive term for an official or landholder that might fit here? 

Of course this might be the wrong couple. However, the timing is right for the return of a wife in his tax records, it fits the birth of their first son, there are no other suitable marriages in Broddetorp or in Skarke, and the names fit and his location fits.

Usually what follows the "i" in these records is the place the person was currently living or the birth parish.  Sometimes there are two such as the birth parish and the parish where the records are kept.  Qvarnum is not a parish and I don't believe I have ever seen a Q in Swedish records that looks like this one.  Could this be Stenum or Istrum.?
My guess on the second and third words was Skiöfde (Skövde) and Skarke, although the extra letters in the latter made me uncertain.  There is also Skärv which is in the area.

If married in the church in Skarke, would the record not have been made there?  There is none there.

I have many records on both parties and was hoping the clarification of these places would help me pin down Britta's birth place and parents. At the parish where she was supposedly born (per later records) there were no Britta Persdotters born for a 20 year period covering well before and well after her supposed birth.  But in several neighboring parishes there were several in the right time period.  Sorting out their comings and goings has been a challenge and I will pursue that further in one of the Parish forums.

Tack så mycket
MVH
Martha




2022-01-26, 08:07
Svar #5

Utloggad Niklas Petrusson

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I read it like:
  dito änklingen Nils i Broddetorp med pigan Britta Pehrsdott. i Tranum
  och skiedde i Skarckies kyrcka.

Tranum is found in Varnhems (Skarkes) annex Norra Lundby, and the marriage is also recorded there
(but very brief) [Norra Lundby kyrkoarkiv, Födelse och dopböcker, SE/GLA/13397/C/2 (1700-1757), p. 150] :
  Anno 1724
  Dom. 23 Trinit. wigdes änklingen ifr[ån] Broddetorp.

Tranum have at least 5 farms, and i see 2 Per about 1700 (one of them, Per Andersson in Holmagården in Tranum have a
daughter Brita in 1704, and he is an ancestor.. :), but there could be other candidates, i have not checked.

mvh
Niklas








2022-01-26, 09:45
Svar #6

Utloggad Jörgen Tollesson

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Last time I just looked at the part of the text that wasn't solved already...  :) Yes, it looks like äncklingen. (Dräng means that he was not married before, in other words not a widower or divorced.)

I'm convinced it says "skiedde i Skarckies kyrcka" ("skedde i Skarkes kyrka" in modern spelling). If we look at the other marriage notes, they don't mention any church or other place where the wedding took place. So the reason that it's noted here must be that it's outside Broddetorp pastorat (parishes with the same priest), that also include Hornborga, Bolum and Sätuna parishes. And it should have been recorded in Broddetorp if they were married by the priest of Broddetorp since these old records are mostly records of church ceremonies (that's why they often tell only the days of christening and burial, not birth and death).

The place names in marriage records are normally where they live at the time of the wedding, not where they were born. Sometimes it says where they were born, but it's seldom, and then it normally also says were they are living (but every priest made the notes as he pleased). And the places are the village, farm or other place where they live, not the parish, if they not from another pastorat.

So when it says that Nils is from Broddetorp it should mean the village Broddetorp (that the parish got its name from and where church is).

Britta probably comes from Tranum. It's a village in Norra Lundby parish in Skarke/Varnhem pastorat. The marriage is recorded there too, but it doesn't mention any names and not the bride at all (Norra Lundby C:2, p. 150; https://app.arkivdigital.se/aid/v17903.b81.s151).
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2022-01-26, 09:55
Svar #7

Utloggad Jörgen Tollesson

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Oops! I missed Niklas' answer. Well, then we agree...  :)
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2022-01-27, 02:09
Svar #8

Utloggad Martha Wolf

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Hej Niklas,
Tack så mycket.  I really appreciate your help.

I don't know why I didn't start with Norra Lundby in my "circle of parishes"  search around Norra Ving (where later records said Britta was born).  Possibly too many hours paging through Istrum, Norra Lundby, etc. to get to the particular parish of interest  :-\  (That must have been in the microfilm days!)

"T" was my first thought for the initial letter of the first word after Persdr. but there were no likely places in the Parishes I was searching, so I'm glad to know my first impression was correct.

I looked at the 1723 and 1724 tax lists in hopes of finding Britta there, but see no maids were listed in those lists.

I've gone through the birth records from 1690-1706 and it seems that Per Andersson's daughter is the only Brita Persdr. born in those years (unless I missed one).  I guess that makes us distant cousins. :)


I'm intrigued and puzzled by the recording of the marriage in the bride and groom's parishes but not in the parish where the ceremony took place.  I've never encountered that before (in years of research). Have you seen it often? Why would it not be recorded where it happened?

I haven't had time to look up more about Per and Ingebor, but will do so and hope to hear more from you about them.

Again, thank you

MVH
Martha

2022-02-05, 16:52
Svar #9

Utloggad Niklas Petrusson

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Hej,   
  so i've tried to check all possible Persson/Persdotter from Tranum/Holmagården, and there is way too many for all of them
to be siblings. It's still work in progress, but so far there is at least 3 (!) Per Andersson in Holmagården in the early 1700's.

The first Per Andersson, enlisted in the army 1709, and renamed as Holmberg, with wife Ingeborg Svensdotter.
Dismissed 1716.  [GMR1714,1716] By court-records 1718-2-25 he was a widower with _two_ living children, poor without any
means and living off hand-outs from "christian people". (so not in tax-records).
He remarried 1718-10-24 with Elin Andersdotter.  Died in Tranum 1746. At least 2 children is later named Holmberg.

The second Per Andersson is the most promising, he moved to Holmagården 1711/1712 from Lilla Husgärdet, Skärv, with several children.
Died already ca 1714. His widow Kerstin Andersdotter remarried 1717-12-26 in N Lundby with Ryttaren Sylvester Johansson.
Per and Kerstin married 1699-7-30 in Skärv. And the first child, Brita, was born there 1699-8-4. She is still living with her mother
and stepfather in Holmagården 1723-12-21 Dopvittne as "Sylvesters [i Holmagården] dotter Brita".  And last time 1724-7-19 listed as
dopvittne Brita Persdr i Tranom.   

The third one, Per Andersson, ryttare renamed as Kiellberg. married ca 1714 the widow Annika Andersdotter in Holmagården
(widow after Sven Håkansson).

You write "Norra Ving (where later records said Britta was born)." Where did you find that? I've looked in Broddetorp and Bolum
(where the son Anders lived later) but didn't find her after "Bouppteckning" after her husband Nils Månsson in 1751.
Would be nice to have an aproximate birth-year for her, but if she was born in Skärv, it would probably be called Norra Ving.

mvh
Niklas


2022-02-08, 23:46
Svar #10

Utloggad Martha Wolf

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Hej Niklas,
Thank you very much for the very interesting research. I see that your second and most promising option links with data I had found when searching Skärv, namely the birth of Britta in 1699 and the marriage of Per and Kerstin.  Where did you find the information about their move to Norra Lundby?  Are there early in- and utflyttning records that haven't been filmed or digitized?  I assume the marriage of Kerstin to Sylvester is in the Norra Lundby records.


I haven't looked that up yet as I was checking for Britta's location between 1751 and 1770.  I had assumed she remained at Per Håkansgård, but she does not appear in the MLs there until fairly late (then as Mother).  Anders and Per (the younger son) stayed there, Anders leaving in 1756 to go to Stommen, Bolum.  Per remained there and in 1766- 1769 his mother is listed in the ML with age 80 (every year)!  In 1768  Per married and is "of Per Håkansgård" at marriage.  In 1770 Per, wife and two sons and Britta moved to Pickagård, Brunnhem.  It is in the Infly[size=78%]ttning (Stenstorp) that her birth year, 1699, and place, N. Ving are given.  Per died in 1772 and Britta left and went back to Broddetorp, according to the Utflyttning.  However, I do not find her in the records between 1772 and 1776, when she appears at Anders home in Bolum. She was there until 1781, at which time her age was given as 78.[/size][size=78%]  I assumed she might have died then, but do not find a death record for her in either Bolum or Broddetorp.  There is a death record in Stenstorp in 1784 [/size][size=78%]for a Britta Persdotter of approximately the right age, but I am not at all certain it is for her, as there was a Britta Persdr. born in Stenstorp in 1700.[/size]

[size=78%]I was puzzled and intrigued by the apparent non-linkage between the marriage records and birth records in Norra Lundby. Usually if I find a marriage I will also find some births for that specific couple at that location. At N. Lundby there are births at the location but the wife is totally different from the one in the marriage record.  I've encountered some places where the clerk was perhaps very careless, or recorded events rather late and forgot, creating [/size]many errors. Is Norra Lundby one of those? But if this Skärv record and the move are the right family, that removes the problem with the birth records.

Can you tell me why these "size" things appear in the text and how to prevent it?




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