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Författare Ämne: Need confirmation/correction for note on 1694 Uhlarp tax record in Angelstad  (läst 1032 gånger)

2021-01-11, 00:55
läst 1032 gånger

Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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Attached is a 1694 tax record and am wondering if someone can confirm or correct my understanding of the circled note on the record for Uhlarp.

I think it says that the man Bengt is over 90 years old.

Your help would be appreciated!

Thank you,

Vicki

2021-01-11, 11:48
Svar #1

Utloggad Yvonne Stenberg

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You read correctly - "Mannen utgl öfr 90 åhr". He is very old, more than 90 yearls old. I would not take that as en exact figure though even if he no doubt is very old.


/Yvonne

2021-01-11, 13:44
Svar #2

Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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Thank you again, Yvonne!

As you can see, I am going through all the available tax records looking for Britta Bengtsdotter's father.  I know that she and several siblings were born in Uhlarp in Angelstad between 1697 and 1707, inclusive and that their father's name is Bengt Larsson. This "old" Bengt cannot be her father.  But, I'm wondering if he possibly is her grandfather?  That would mean that he had a son Lars - for which I have no proof thus far.  There is a household record for Ularp Angelstad that shows a Bengt with a wife named Britta, maybe my Britta was named after her...unfortunately, there is very little information contained in this record except that they have a son Nils which fits with the name Nils you find on a later tax record where the  "children are feeding the parents."   May be only a coincidence.   The names are crossed out.

Angelstad (G) AI:1 (-1793) Image: 137 Page: 25
https://app.arkivdigital.se/volume/v18231?image=137,

I believe I've found Bengt, her father, later in the tax records in Romborna Norrgård in Annerstad during the years the later children were born (but I haven't finished looking into all these records yet).  I'm sure I'll have more questions on these.

I wholeheartedly appreciate all the help I receive with these notes - it makes all the difference in determining whether or not I might be on the right track.  If it makes sense I'll keep it for later when I may be able to prove it or disprove it!

Thanks again for all your help,

Vicki

2021-01-11, 23:06
Svar #3

Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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Hi Yvonne,

I had been trying to see if I can find Bengt Larsson (Britta Bengtsdotter's father) starting with the tax records around 1700 when Britta was born in Uhlarp. The available tax records are 1695, next one is 1701.  There is a Bengt there during that timeframe, but it is a Bengt that is very old in 1694 (over 90) and, in fact, is being supported by his children in 1701 so doesn't fit.  With Brita and many of her siblings being born there between 1695 and 1709, it seems strange that Bengt (Larsson, Britta's father) doesn't seem to be taxed in Uhlarp.  I had thought maybe the "old" Bengt may have been related.  But there are many Bengts and many Brittas.  That is still possible I suppose.

I looked into the Bengt with wife Brita and son Nils in Kärringe Norregård in Angelstad (on page 165).  That was a Bengt Bengtsson, born in 1732 which was before Britta Bengtsson was born at Uhlarp in 1700, so it it quite confusing. 

I think I've found the family after they moved to Romborna Norrgård in Annerstad sometime after 1709.  Bengt died there in 1751 so I'll go through those tax records to see if there are any more clues as to where he originally came from.  I'll likely have more questions. :)

Thanks again for your help! 

Vicki

2021-01-12, 00:21
Svar #4

Utloggad Yvonne Stenberg

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Hello again Vicki,

That is really strange, he does not seem to have been taxed for own property at least?

I found the church's accounts, and started looking for them around 1694, but not until 1697 Bengt Larsson i Ularp paid an amount. So he is there then at least, but no mentioning of a wedding before that so maybe they did marry somewhere else. They had their first child around 1697, so the payment to the church would fit in well there.

Angelstads kyrkoarkiv, Räkenskaper för kyrkan. Äldre allmän odelad serie samt huvudräkenskaper., SE/VALA/00013/L I a/1 (1632-1704), bildid: C0065290_00144.

They also had a son Lars there before they moved to Annerstad after 1709. A Lars died 1706 in Östenstorp, maybe a clue to a relative which might be worth following?

/Yvonne

2021-01-12, 01:06
Svar #5

Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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Thank you, Yvonne!

I will follow up!

I didn't have access to a 1697 tax record so that is very interesting.  You definitely have the right people.  I even see his patronymic name of Larson!  Wonderful!  Thank you for this!

I did find a Bengt listed in 1701, but this Bengt is being supported by his children so must be the "old" one, correct?  Am I looking at the wrong record for my Bengt (Larsson) in Ularp?

Mantalslängder 1642-1820 Kronobergs län 1642-1820 (G) 43 (1701) Image: 1280 Page: 1621
https://app.arkivdigital.se/volume/v840167?image=1280&page=1619 

The index at the beginning of the first book of household exam records shows the following places for Ularp:  Drängagård, Mellangård, Norrgård, Skattegård and Södergård.  I am not sure which one it is, I haven't been able to find that many different listings in the tax records for Uhlarp/Ularp, but I would have thought they would all be listed together in the tax records.  A couple of the birth records look like they have more information besides just Ularp but I can't read it.  Can you tell me if it specifies which place in Ularp?

Britta Bengsdotter's birth record 26 Mar 1700:
Angelstad-G-CI-1-1697-1747-Image-17-Page-23
https://app.arkivdigital.se/volume/v30821?image=17

Pehr Bengtsson's birth record 28 Nov 1697:
Angelstad-G-CI-1-1697-1747-Image-10-Page-9
https://app.arkivdigital.se/volume/v30821?image=10

Sven Bengtsson's birth record 18 Nov 1703:
Angelstad (G) CI:1 (1697-1747) Image: 38 Page: 65
https://app.arkivdigital.se/volume/v30821?image=38

I will look for information on the other Lars who died 1706 in Östenstorp in Angelstad!

Thank you for this very helpful information! 

Vicki

2021-01-12, 02:55
Svar #6

Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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Hi again Yvonne,

There is a 1706 death record for a Lars in Östenstorp at age 78 which puts his birth year ca. 1628. This would seem to be  Bengt Larsson's father!  If I am correct, then how did you know where he was living and that this is him? 

Angelstad (G) CI:1 (1697-1747) Image: 48 Page: 85     
https://app.arkivdigital.se/volume/v30821?image=48

I have also found a death record for a 6 week old child of Bengt Larsson in Ularp in Dec 1703.  There is a birth record for a son Sven born in November 1703 so I think this is a death record for Sven. 

ArkivDigital: Angelstad (G) CI:1 (1697-1747) Image: 38 Page: 65
https://app.arkivdigital.se/volume/v30821?image=38

Tomorrow I will search for more!     :)

Thank you again for your help!

Vicki

2021-01-12, 09:21
Svar #7

Utloggad Martin Brandt

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Victoria,


Bengt Larsson i Ularp later in Romborna Norregård is my ancestor as well. I have not been able to find his or his wifes parents. Your idea with Östenstorp has no proof, so unless you can find something, there is nothing to support it beeing Bengt Larssons father.

See my research here: https://brandt.slektforskning.se/Bengt-Larsson-46cb38b7


From my memory I remember seeing him in "domböckerna" about Ularp.. but I cannot find my notes for some reason. But I remember it as him moving there around the same time your first notice him there. And that he is arguing with the previous owner about something uninteresting for us genealogists.. I really thought I had made notes about this.. but I find nothing in my archive for some reason..


regards,
Martin

2021-01-12, 10:54
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Utloggad Yvonne Stenberg

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Hello to both of you,

I found this on Martin's excellent pages where court books have been transscribed:


1696: 1st call for Bengt Larsson to buy three sister's parts of Uhlarp:

Göta Hovrätt - Advokatfiskalen Kronobergs län (G) EVIIAAAD:41 (1696-1698) Bild 530 / sid 97 (AID: v206282.b530.s97, NAD: SE/VALA/0382503)
https://www.sunnerbo.nu/Sunnerbo-dombok-1696.s52?highlight=uhlarp

34
Bengt Larsson i Ångelstad kiöpt tree systerlotter uthi
1/4 af skattegården Uhlarp, bestående af 5? skiep
peland hwar systerlott, och för hwar lott gifwit
Tretton dal.r Smt, och till Jacob Knutzson i
Biernaryd å deß hustrus wegnar, sampt Gunnel
och Sahra Swensdöttrar samma penningar    
lefwererat, efter bref d 25 April 1696, uppbiudes   1 g.

1696: 2nd call for Bengt Larsson to buy said parts of Uhlarp:

Göta Hovrätt - Advokatfiskalen Kronobergs län (G) EVIIAAAD:41 (1696-1698) Bild 970 / sid 185 (AID: v206282.b970.s185, NAD: SE/VALA/0382503)
https://www.sunnerbo.nu/Sunnerbo-dombok-1696.s96?highlight=uhlarp

18
Bengt Larsson i Ångelstad låter uppbiuda Tre systerlottar
uthi 1/4 af skattegården uhlarp               2 g.n

1697: 3rd call

Göta Hovrätt - Advokatfiskalen Kronobergs län (G) EVIIAAAD:41 (1696-1698) Bild 1740 / sid 1 (AID: v206282.b1740.s1, NAD: SE/VALA/0382503)
https://www.sunnerbo.nu/Sunnerbo-dombok-1697.s8?highlight=uhlarp

2
Bengt Larßon i Ångelstad, låter uppbiuda Tree syster-
lotter uthi 1/4 af skattegården i uhlarp         3 g.n   

1697: Worth noting that there is a wife Kierstin Larsdotter in Uhlarp

Göta Hovrätt - Advokatfiskalen Kronobergs län (G) EVIIAAAD:41 (1696-1698) Bild 2570 / sid 165 (AID: v206282.b2570.s165, NAD: SE/VALA/0382503)
https://www.sunnerbo.nu/Sunnerbo-dombok-1697.s91?highlight=uhlarp

59   
Samma dagh framkom för Retten, Corporalen Bengt Jsraëlsson,        
gifwandes tillkienna, huruledes deß broder Nils Jsraëlsson
från Sunnerbo häradt, Ångelstad Sochn och uhlarp,
är sinnat begifwa sigh under det Lofl. Skräddare Embetet,
begierandes om deß lefwerne och härkomst ett sanferdigt
bewijs och Bördzbref;     fördenskull blef på tillfrågan af
Nembden som närwarande allmoge bewittnat, om denne Nils
Jsraëlssons redel. afkomst och aflinge, hans fader Ehrligh
och beskiedeligh Jsraël Bengtzson i uhlarp, och Modren
H. Kierstin Larsdotter i uhlarp, der öfwer ett attestatum
publicum meddelat blef.

1704: Bengt purchases part of Rya:

Göta Hovrätt - Advokatfiskalen EVIIAAC:4 (1704) Bild 1100 (AID: v950347.b1100)
https://www.sunnerbo.nu/Sunnerbo-dombok-1704.s1?highlight=uhlarp

Bengt Larsson i Uhlarp, kiöpt af Bengt Thorßon i Skieen
1/4 skattejord i Rya för – 115 dlr S.mt, bref dat:
d 8 February A.o 1704. uppbiudes         1 g.

1708: Bengt sells part of Werset Norregård:

Göta Hovrätt - Advokatfiskalen EVIIAAC:8 (1708) Bild 910 / sid 79 (AID: v950351.b910.s79)
https://www.sunnerbo.nu/Sunnerbo-dombok-1708.s2?highlight=uhlarp

Organisten Petter Aurenius kiöpt af Bengt Larßon
i Uhlarp 1/3 skatteiord i Norregd.n Werßet
för 76 dlr Smt sampt Wängåfwa till Sälljarens hu-
stru ett kiortellkäde, hwaremot wid gården blefwe
qwart bord Säte och fönster, bref d 9 febr: 1708
opbiudes                   1 g.

I cannot find more notes on this Bengt, there is another Bengt Larsson in Kvänarp who seems to have been involved in many local court cases.

However, Martin is of course right that you cannot know if Lars i Östenstorp is Bengt's father, he might not even be from Angelstad. From the above you can see that he buys Uhlarp from three sisters and since they are daughters of a Sven and they had a son Sven (2nd I think) it might as well be so that it is Kirstin who is from Angelstad - but no guarantee on that either. Bengt seem to have been involved in several property deals.

/Yvonne


2021-01-12, 11:07
Svar #9

Utloggad Martin Brandt

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Hello ,

Funny how I did not think of checking our own sunnerbo.nu for him.


I remember the things you found now... thanks. It is fully possible that Bengt Larsson's wife is from Ularp, however one thing would speak against it:
The fact that in the text from 1696, it is not mentioned that he himself has a part of Ularp on his wifes behalf.
I would almost expect that to be mentioned in that case as it usually is. But it does not rule out the possibility, that his wife is from Ularp.

Maybe we can find his wife in KyRä before the marriage? Also.. Bengt Larsson lives in Angelstad before marriage, an interesting person there from ROU 1682 is "Lars Bengtsson".



/Martin

2021-01-12, 13:41
Svar #10

Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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Thank you both for the very interesting and helpful information!

I will take a look at all of it!

Your help if very much appreciated.  Although I have tried researching the court records, unfortunately, I have not be successful since I still have difficulty with the handwriting and don't speak Swedish! 

Thank you again,

Vicki


2021-01-12, 16:34
Svar #11

Utloggad Yvonne Stenberg

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Good thinking there, you are probably right that it would have been mentioned something about Bengt having a part in Ularp either himself or by his wife. I have glanced through the church accounts more years from 1685 and found the following:


1685: There is a Lars Bengtsson in Angelstad (village)

Angelstads kyrkoarkiv, Räkenskaper för kyrkan. Äldre allmän odelad serie samt huvudräkenskaper., SE/VALA/00013/L I a/1 (1632-1704), bildid: C0065290_00104


1691: A Bengt in Angelstad, later the same year Lars Bengtsson i Angelstad

Angelstads kyrkoarkiv, Räkenskaper för kyrkan. Äldre allmän odelad serie samt huvudräkenskaper., SE/VALA/00013/L I a/1 (1632-1704), bildid: C0065290_00118


1694: IV Adv. Bengt Larss. i Angelstad pays 1 ...

Angelstads kyrkoarkiv, Räkenskaper för kyrkan. Äldre allmän odelad serie samt huvudräkenskaper., SE/VALA/00013/L I a/1 (1632-1704), bildid: C0065290_00125


1696: Påskedagh Lars i Angelstadh pays 1 ..

Angelstads kyrkoarkiv, Räkenskaper för kyrkan. Äldre allmän odelad serie samt huvudräkenskaper., SE/VALA/00013/L I a/1 (1632-1704), bildid: C0065290_00131


1697: Janu Bengt Larsson ibid (now in Ularp) pays 8 ...

Angelstads kyrkoarkiv, Räkenskaper för kyrkan. Äldre allmän odelad serie samt huvudräkenskaper., SE/VALA/00013/L I a/1 (1632-1704), bildid: C0065290_00144

I cannot find any trace of any brudgumme i e wedding note for Bengt during that period in Angelstad at all, nor any testamente for a possible earlier wife.

About Lars Bengtsson, Bengt and Kirstin do not seem to have had a son Bengt (at least not visible in the books), their first two sons were Per and Sven and then Lars came 1709. No trace of a Lars Bengtsson later not even in the death records - could he have been living with someone in Östentorp (another child?) when he died?

/Yvonne

P.S. Also noted that Martin´s ancestor is Britta's sister Elin - who seems to have married Johan Enevaldsson in Fårtorp - one of my ancestors was Sven Enevaldsson in Annerstad Brogård - possibly with a common ancestor with the Fårtorp Enevalds? D.S.



2021-01-12, 17:17
Svar #12

Utloggad Martin Brandt

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In the year 1700 there was a child born called Jon Jöransson in Kärringe, Angelstad.
Among the wittnesses were:
Hustru Kirstin Israelsdotter and Hustru Kirstin Persdotter in Ularp
The latter one, Kirstin Persdotter could possibly be Bengt Larssons wife, since they have a son Per (Peter), but no known son Israel.

---

The connection to Östenstorp is possible, Bengt Larsson has a hustru Elin in Östenstorp many times as witness, a sister?

Anders Jonsson in Östenstorp has hustru Kirstin Persdotter in Ularp as witness in the year 1700.
In 1742 hustru Elin in Östenstorp dies, 90 years old, wife of Anders Jonsson.
1698 Anders Jonsson from Rataryd was married to Elin Larsdotter in Östenstorp.
In 1695 there is no Lars in Östenstorp
In 1701 Lars wife is listed, and there is a note about her, unreadable.. about being poor (and probably old).
In 1702, Lars in Östenstorp has become a widow.

2021-01-12, 18:35
Svar #13

Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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Thank you both for this additional information!  What an interesting discussion!  I have a lot to do.   :)

Thanks so much,

Vicki

2021-01-12, 19:03
Svar #14

Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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I'm still looking through the birth/marriage/death records in Angelstad and found this record - it looks like a baptism record for a Lars Bengtsson in 1697 in Ryia(?), but there's a note that was erased I think. 

Angelstad-G-CI-1-1697-1747-Image-9-Page-7
https://app.arkivdigital.se/volume/v30821?image=9

It is odd because the record is dated 19 Sept 1697 which is the same year that Bengt Larsson's first child named Per was born on 28 Nov 1697 in Ularp.

Does this have anything to do with this family?

Thank for your help,

Vicki


2021-01-12, 19:29
Svar #15

Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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Ok, looks like that Lars Bengtsson died 15 Apr 1700 at age 2 1/2 years in Ryia. 

Angelstad-G-CI-1-1697-1747-Image-17-Page-23
https://app.arkivdigital.se/volume/v30821?image=17

I'm not clear on whether this person is related in any way.  Yvonne, you mentioned yesterday that "They also had a son Lars there before they moved to Annerstad after 1709." 

Forgive me for being so far behind you two!  :)  I work slowly.  :)

Thanks for your help!

Vicki

2021-01-12, 19:58
Svar #16

Utloggad Yvonne Stenberg

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No this is another family. 1697 there was a Bengt Thorsson in Rya, probably the same Bengt Thorsson in Skeen (Annerstad) that Bengt purchased part of Rya from 1704 - see above. Probably he who died 1756 in Skäckarp in Annerstad. Your Bengt's Lars was born 1709.

Keep up the good work,
Yvonne

2021-01-12, 20:02
Svar #17

Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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Thank you for clarifying!

Good practice anyway.  :)

Thanks so much for you ongoing help!

Vicki

2021-01-12, 20:38
Svar #18

Utloggad Martin Brandt

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You're questions have helped me get more info on my ancestors just by reading and thinking about it, so I'm happy.

I pointed Lars-Ola Stare in the direction of this conversation because he has the proof of Bengt Larssons father :)  I think he will post it when he gets time, if not I will post it here later.

2021-01-12, 20:48
Svar #19

Utloggad Lars-Ola Stare

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Hejsan
There is a court record from 1706 that confirms that Bengt Larsson and Elin Larsdotter are siblings.


Enkan hustro Elin Månsdotter från Dragaryd, tilltahlar Anders Jon
son från Östenstorp om en Skulldfordran af 9 dlr Smt, som hon berät
tar uppå ett för 24 åhr sedan af Lars bengtson panttsatt Silf
werbälte, restera och innestå, hwilka penningar käranden
Sustinerar kunna bekomma, men aldenstund och den afled
nes wägnar, Sohnen Bengt Larßon och mågen Anders Jonson
såßom Swarander föregifwa, sig denne fordran icke wettat
eller innom 20 åhrs förlopp derom påmint warit, hwilket herr
Kyrkoherden Magister Lars Ulmgreen genom des lembnade Skrif
welse besannar, Kunnandes käranden denne sin talan medh
något skiähl ell:r witnen icke bewisa; fördenskull i anledning
af kongl. allernådigste placat och förordning d 29 Novemb:
A:o 1680, at den som innom 20 åhrs förlopp slyke fordringer, lagel.
ey angifwer, skola wara abandonerade, dömbde Rätten, dhet
Rätten, ded böra Swaranderna ifrån kärandens tillmähle wa
ra frye och omolesterade.
[Sunnerbo dombok 1706 ST, nr 97]

I just have an old reference, sorry for that [Sunnerbo dombok 1706 ST, nr 97]

Elin and Anders are my ancestors, and then also Lars Bengtsson.

Mvh, Lars-Ola, Halmstad

2021-01-12, 20:56
Svar #20

Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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Yvonne and Martin and Lars-Ola,

I cannot keep up with your posts quick enough! 

Hi Lars-Ola! and thank you for this information!  It is nice to hear from you again!

And, Martin, I'm very glad to hear that you have benefitted also from this discussion!

I really appreciate all that everyone does to help me.  Yvonne seems to get me to a place where others can also jump in, which I'm sure I wouldn't be able to do without her help.  That is very much appreciated.  It is difficult when you get that far back in time and really need to know a lot more than I do!  So your help is precious! 
 
I just found a 17 Jul 1710 death record for a son of Bengt Larsson in Ularp (named Lars).  He was 12 weeks old.

Is this the same Lars Bengtsson that was born 28 Dec 1709?  That would make him at least 6 months old but I realize the date may be inaccurate.  If it is him, then he definitely would not be the same person as Lars Lundman, the bell ringer and organist.....which was an old open questions I had - I was never able to definitively link the name Lars Bengtsson with Lars Lundman.    I notice that Martin lists him as Lars Bengtsson with no mention of Lundman.

Angelstad (G) CI:1 (1697-1747) Image: 62 Page: 113
https://app.arkivdigital.se/volume/v30821?image=62

Maybe this will put the question to rest. :) 

Thanks for your continued help!

Vicki

2021-01-13, 12:52
Svar #21

Utloggad Yvonne Stenberg

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Hi,

It looks like you found the correct son Lars born 1709, however, in that case there is another son Lars later, probably born after Maria? See

Annerstad (G) AI:1 (1718-1723) Bild 23 / sid 33

I have not found the birth place of Maria, and maybe she and this second Lars is born somewhere else between those two places?

/Yvonne

2021-01-13, 13:51
Svar #22

Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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Yvonne,

Thank you for this! I have not found a birth record yet for Maria either. but will continue looking for her birth record and another Lars (maybe he is the Lars Bengtsson Lundman).

In regard to another Lars, I had the same thought when I reviewed the 1718-1723 household record.  When I had initially looked for a death record for Lars, I had originally assumed he was still alive after 1718 and therefore did not find one.  Yesterday I went through all the records from the beginning and only found it at that time.  When I first saw that household record you sent I was a little puzzled by the way Lars' name appears on it - it looks like it was originally written, then crossed out, then added again. Also, there is no age given for as there was for the other children. 

Also, I have a couple other children for Bengt Larsson and Kirstin that aren't listed on that 1718-1723 household record:
    Anders Bengtsson - b 2 Aug 1716  d. 11 Sept 1716

    Annerstad-G-CI-1-1708-1750-Image-16-Page-27
    https://app.arkivdigital.se/volume/v30808?image=16
 
    Abraham Bengtsson (this name really doesn't seem to fit) b. 28 Sep 1718  d. 6 May 1719 - let me know what you think.

    Annerstad-G-CI-1-1708-1750-Image-19-Page-33
    https://app.arkivdigital.se/volume/v30808?image=19 (bottom of right hand page 33 and continues on page 34)

As I'm still going through all the information from yesterday I have a few questions but am holding off on those in case I find the answers later in the discussion.  This is great fun and I'm learning so much.   It is really a thrill to work with such knowledgeable and dedicated researchers!

Thanks again for all of the ongoing help,

Vicki


2021-01-13, 20:21
Svar #23

Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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Hi again Yvonne,

I found a possibility for the other Lars Bengtsson. It was the only Lars born to a Bengt (in either Angelstad or Annerstad) within the timeframe between the birth of the first Lars Bengtsson in Dec 1709 in Angelstad and next birth record for his brother Anders in Aug 1716 in Annerstad.

Annerstad (G) CI:1 (1708-1750) Image: 12 Page: 19
https://app.arkivdigital.se/volume/v30808?image=12

As far as I can tell it says:

3 Feb 1714 is born Bengts son in Norretstorp, baptised ?, called Lars. Witnesses Jöns Knutsson? in Öyarp, Pehr in Norrett? and other names and places I'm not sure of.

Usually the birth records of Bengt Larsson's children contain his full name instead of only Bengt.  Not sure if that makes a difference.  An interesting thing though, is that I had noted the following when trying to determine whether Lars Bengtsson was the same person as Lars Lundman:
Citera
I found a 1741 marriage record for Lars and tax records for at least the years 1744-1777 but in all cases he was listed as Lars Lundman (or Lungman). I also found his widow's death record in Angelstad in 1785.  If this is his death record, then I don't think Lars Bengtsson and Lars Lundman are the same man.  Lars Bengtsson was born 1709 and this Lars Lundman, based on the death record, would have been born ca 1714, although it is still possible I guess.

We know there was another Lars Bengtsson because he appears on the 1718-1723 household records and it also appears he was very young at that time. 

You had also previously written that
Citera
a wife Maria in Marsjö in Annerstad (his supposed sister) was a witness at the baptism of his daughter Ingeborg in 1751, and Lars Lundman's wife in Angelstad was a witness at the baptism o Maria's in Marsjö son Abraham in 1743. They had a brother Abraham that died young. I suppose it might be possible to find some of the estate valuations at the siblings' deaths where a guardian could be named Lars something? Otherwise you might have to keep his whereabouts in your notes for the time being.

So is it possible that this Lars Bengtsson is Lars Lundman?  :)

I still have not been able to find Maria's birth record but obviously she existed!  And I had already forgotten about Abraham  :-[.  Good thing I keep all my notes...

I look forward to hearing your thoughts on this.

Thanks again for your help,

Vicki

2021-01-13, 21:41
Svar #24

Utloggad Yvonne Stenberg

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Hi again,

I think it is still possible that the younger Lars is Lars Lundman, especially when Maria and he are witnesses at baptisms for each others children. The birth note 1714 fits in of course, but how can we be sure with totally different witnesses for his birth. It says "d 3 feb föddes Bengtz son i Norretz torp, döptes faste lagz söndag kallades Lars, Testes Jöns Knutzson i Öyarp, Pähr i Norrnäs, sockenskomakare Nils Jons hustru i Sundranäs", i e on 3rd Feb Bengt's son was born in Norrets torp, baptized 7th Feb named Lars. Witnesses etc...

In tax records for 1715 there is a Bengt with wife in Norret, and they are poor. In the next tax book 1717 they are not there, but a Bengt with wife are now in Romborna Norregård - probably poor as the man has been excused from tax this year. It looks like them, although Bengt does not seem so fortunate with property deals any more.

/Yvonne

2021-01-13, 22:08
Svar #25

Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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Thank you for this information - it is very interesting.    I definitely agree with you about the witnesses but thought maybe it was because they were now living in a different place (Annerstad) from where they were living when the first Lars was born (Angelstad) - in between places. 

Either way, it does look like one of these is Lars Lundman.  If it is the first one, though, that means the death record I found would no longer fit.  Not sure what to do with that.  :)

I'll note all of this and move on again as I still don't have anything definitive proving that either Lars Bengtsson is Lars Lundman!

Thanks so much for your continued help,

Vicki

2021-01-13, 23:36
Svar #26

Utloggad Martin Brandt

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I'm spending some time in the court records to try and verify some stuff..


I found in 1712 that in norretz torp, there was a wife called Kirstin Pärsdotter living there. She is a witness.
So from my earlier deduction, this should be the name of Bengt Larssons wife.


So that would support your ideas of them living in Norrets Torp.




Source: Göta Hovrätt - Advokatfiskalen Jönköpings län (F) EVIIAABA:372 (1712) Bild 970 / sid 185 (AID: v323935.b970.s185, NAD: SE/VALA/0382503)

2021-01-14, 00:41
Svar #27

Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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Thank you, Martin!

That is great news!  I really appreciate you sending this!

Would you believe I'm still going through everything from yesterday? :)  There is so much helpful information in there.
I'm documenting what I've learned and making notes about things that still need proof/clarification.  It takes a while but I'm sure you know that! :) 

Thanks again for your help!

Vicki


2021-01-14, 18:38
Svar #28

Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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Hi Yvonne and Martin,

The information you've both sent is really helpful!  I am currently looking at the following part and have some questions in regard to the item I have highlighted:

Citera
The connection to Östenstorp is possible, Bengt Larsson has a hustru Elin in Östenstorp many times as witness, a sister?

Anders Jonsson in Östenstorp has hustru Kirstin Persdotter in Ularp as witness in the year 1700.
In 1742 hustru Elin in Östenstorp dies, 90 years old, wife of Anders Jonsson.
1698 Anders Jonsson from Rataryd was married to Elin Larsdotter in Östenstorp.
In 1695 there is no Lars in Östenstorp
In 1701 Lars wife is listed, and there is a note about her, unreadable.. about being poor (and probably old).
In 1702, Lars in Östenstorp has become a widow.

I continued looking at the tax records for Östenstorp after 1702 and this is what I found:

In 1703 there is a Lars and wife with a note which I believe indicates they are being supported by the children - it looks like his wife is still alive?

Mantalslängder 1642-1820 Kronobergs län 1642-1820 (G) 45 (1703) Image: 1160 Page: 1281
https://app.arkivdigital.se/volume/v840169?image=1160&page=1281

In 1704 there a Lars and wife, again with a note similar to the last, they are supported by their children.  There is also a note on the far right that I'm not sure if relates to them or not.

Mantalslängder 1642-1820 Kronobergs län 1642-1820 (G) 46 (1704) Image: 1040 Page: 2165
https://app.arkivdigital.se/volume/v840170?image=1040&page=2165

In 1705 they are not listed, but I'm not sure what the last part of the entry says or does it even relate to them?

Mantalslängder 1642-1820 Kronobergs län 1642-1820 (G) 47 (1705) Image: 1070 Page: 1753
https://app.arkivdigital.se/volume/v840171?image=1070&page=1751

In 1707 again they are not listed but I don't really understand the last line in this record.

Mantalslängder 1642-1820 Kronobergs län 1642-1820 (G) 49 (1707) Image: 1890 Page: 1947
https://app.arkivdigital.se/volume/v840173?image=1890&page=1945

Also I didn't find a death record for a wife from Östenstorp within the 1701-1702 timeframe and Lars wasn't listed as a widower on his death record in 1706.

There is a death record for a widow in Östenstorp in 1707 that I think may be his widow. but I'm not sure what the first word is on the death record:

Angelstad (G) CI:1 (1697-1747) Image: 51 Page: 91
https://app.arkivdigital.se/volume/v30821?image=51

It is very possible that I have interpreted something incorrectly so please correct me if I have made an error!

Thank you so much for your help,

Vicki

2021-01-14, 18:43
Svar #29

Utloggad Martin Brandt

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It says Lars was a widower here in 1702


Mantalslängder 1642-1820 Kronobergs län 1642-1820 (G) 44 (1702) Bild 1710 / sid 2477 (AID: v840168a.b1710.s2477, NAD: SE/RA/5520306)


In 1695 when in Angelstad, it says "Lars wife deadly sick and is always in bed".


So either they mistakenly thoguht she died in 1701/1702 or he remarried... or its a completely different Lars that shows up in Östenstorp after 1701/1702

2021-01-14, 18:51
Svar #30

Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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Hi Martin,

Occasionally I have found an error so want to make sure that is not the case.  Have you found a death record for her?  Maybe I missed it.

Would you mind taking a look at the tax records for 1703 and 1704?  Maybe I have misinterpreted them.

Thanks for your help!

Vicki


2021-01-14, 18:52
Svar #31

Utloggad Martin Brandt

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I have not found a fitting death record no, and there is nothing wrong with your interpretation. But the facts are confusing.. so hard to be sure whats going on.

2021-01-14, 18:54
Svar #32

Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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2021-01-14, 19:46
Svar #33

Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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Lars-Ola,

Thank you again for sharing the information on the court case of 1706 that names the father Lars Bengtsson and the relationship to his son Bengt Larsson and to his son-in-law Anders Jonsson, the husband of Bengt's sister Elin Larsdotter. 

From what I understand, in 1706, after the death of the father Lars Bengtsson, the widow Elin Månsdotter sued the son Bengt Larsson and son-in-law (Anders Jonsson) for an unpaid debt from 24 years prior.  This claim was contested by the son and son-in-law on the basis that more than the allowable 20 years had passed since the debt was undertaken by the father Lars Bengtsson. 

These court cases are always very interesting, so hopefully I understand the essence of it. It really proves that nothing ever really changes.  :)

Thanks again,

Vicki


2021-01-15, 03:00
Svar #34

Utloggad Lars-Ola Stare

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Hejsan


Regarding the Lars born 1714 in Norretstorp, I am not so sure that is is Bengt Larsson who is the father.


In October 1714 Bengt Torsson purchased the homestead,



Fru Maria Elisabeth Hårdh, efter breef af d: 6: octob:
1714: försållt Frällserätten af hemmanet Norrestorp 1/8
belägit hör i häradet och Annerstad Sochn för En Summa
penningar – 55: dlr Smt till Bonden Bengt Torson
upbiudes   1 g.
https://www.sunnerbo.nu/Sunnerbo-dombok-1715.s2


Bengt Torsson (my ancestor) was married to Kerstin Nildotter. There son Nils married Ingeborg Börjesdotter (grand daughter to Elin Larsdotter whom were sister to Bengt Larsson)


Bengt and Kerstin left Norretstorp and moved to Angelstad again, accourding to 1718-1723 husförhör.
Annerstad (G) AI:1 (1718-1723) Bild 92 / sid 171 (AID: v18248.b92.s171, NAD: SE/VALA/00015)


I would need to better review of the tax records to follow Bengt Torsson movements.


Regards, Lars-Ola, Halmstad


2021-01-15, 05:03
Svar #35

Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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Hi again Lars,

Thank you for this additional information.  I have finally finished reviewing all the information today and know that more research is needed.

It is not at all surprising that you are questioning whether Lars born in Norretstorp in 1714 is part of this family as I'm not comfortable with that either.  There are still questions that need to be answered.  Are there 2 Lars Bengtssons?  Did the first Lars b. 1709 die in 1710?  IWe know there is a Lars Bengtsson still living per the 1718-1723 household record for Romoborna Norrgård in Annerstad. 

There is a gap between the time the last child was born in Angelstad and the first child was born in Annerstad.  Maybe that is when Maria was born, but I have not been able to find her birth record.  That also could have been when another son Lars was born.  The Lars in Norretstorp who was born to a Bengt was the only fit I could find, BUT there are many reasons to question it.  First of all, there is no indication that they moved there in particular, but, if not, where were they living during that time gap?

I'm so glad you wrote.  I have many questions and I am not sure where to start. It all seems a bit disconnected at the moment.  Tomorrow I will take another look.

If you find anything further to prove or disprove this piece,  I would be very interested.  The information from the church books and court cases has been much more helpful than the tax records with this particular family. 

As always, your help is much appreciated.

Thanks again,

Vicki

2021-01-15, 15:31
Svar #36

Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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Lars-Ola, First I want to apologize for addressing you as Lars instead of Lars-Ola.   I guess I had "Lars" on my brain.

Lars-Ola, Yvonne and Martin (and anyone else who may be following this discussion),

While some pieces seem to fit, others don't. I haven't updated anything in my tree yet so today I would like to ask questions one at a time to better understand what I have here.  It may seem simplistic but is the easiest way for me to understand step by step and be able to move forward with this research.  So, your patience is much appreciated!

Do you agree that the Lars b. in 1709 is the same Lars as listed on the death record in 1710?

28 Dec 1709 birth record Uhlarp, Angelstad (note that a witness Anders in Östenstorp was present at his baptism)
Angelstad-G-CI-1-1697-1747-Image-59-Page-107
https://app.arkivdigital.se/volume/v30821?image=59

17 Jul 1710 death record Uhlarp, Angelstad
Angelstad (G) CI:1 (1697-1747) Image: 62 Page: 113
https://app.arkivdigital.se/volume/v30821?image=62

Thanks for your help,

Vicki


2021-01-15, 19:31
Svar #37

Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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Can anyone tell me what the circled word is on the attached death 1707 death record?

Angelstad (G) CI:1 (1697-1747) Image: 51 Page: 91
https://app.arkivdigital.se/volume/v30821?image=51

Thanks for your help,

Vicki

2021-01-15, 19:33
Svar #38

Utloggad Martin Brandt

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Gamble = modern spelling "gamla" = old


It could be Lars widow, but you cannot be sure of that or that she is the mother of Bengt Larsson. He could have remarried at some point before we have records.

2021-01-15, 20:15
Svar #39

Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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Thank you, Martin!

I'm not trying to disprove your work at all - I'm just trying to ensure that I understand the information and back up my research with as much supporting documentation as I am able to.  Sometimes when I get too much information all at once I have difficulty sorting it all out.  However, I am very grateful for any information that I receive!  You have been very helpful.

I know that it doesn't at all prove this is his widow, but I'm trying to understand the information that is available since I have not found a death record for her or another marriage record for Lars after 1701/1702.  Since this Lars died in 1706 at age 78, he would have been quite old already (not that it couldn't have happened that way).  I don't have any way to tell who another Lars might have been who moved there.

Maybe the notes on the subsequent tax records will answer some of the questions I have.  Can you help me with the notes say for the following records? 

In 1704 there are a Lars and wife, similar to the record for 1703, they are supported by their children.  There is also a note on the far right that I'm not sure if relates to them or not.  Please correct me if I have not translated correctly.

Mantalslängder 1642-1820 Kronobergs län 1642-1820 (G) 46 (1704) Image: 1040 Page: 2165
https://app.arkivdigital.se/volume/v840170?image=1040&page=2165

In 1705 they are not listed, but I'm not sure what the last part of the entry says or even if it to them.

Mantalslängder 1642-1820 Kronobergs län 1642-1820 (G) 47 (1705) Image: 1070 Page: 1753
https://app.arkivdigital.se/volume/v840171?image=1070&page=1751

In 1707 again they are not listed but I don't really understand the last line in this record.

Mantalslängder 1642-1820 Kronobergs län 1642-1820 (G) 49 (1707) Image: 1890 Page: 1947
https://app.arkivdigital.se/volume/v840173?image=1890&page=1945

It seemed like it might be possible that, since Elin Larsdotter was married to Anders Jonsson, the Anders who is also listed would indicate the daughter and son-in-law that are supporting him.  I could very easily misinterpret the information and would appreciate any correction.

Anyway, thanks again for your help,

Vicki

2021-01-15, 20:18
Svar #40

Utloggad Martin Brandt

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1704: "Mannen tiänar" = "The man/husband is serving" (=this is for Jon on the line above Lars), and the other not is "hust förl:t" = "wife paralyzed", this is for Lars wife.
1705: There is apparently an assigned cottage for soldier on horse in Östenstorp, and this year it is noted that it is vacant. "k:tt Stuf:n vacant" = "knecht stuffuan vacant" = "soldier cottage vacant"
1707: Again related the the assigned "cottage for soldiers on horse" (="Ryttaretorp" in the text), it is "undeveloped"

Not sure about the best translation for ryttaretorp/knechtstuffua is... just using the english I have.

2021-01-15, 20:35
Svar #41

Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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Thanks so much!  Is there any way to determine who this Lars is? 

I appreciate your help,

Vicki

2021-01-15, 23:27
Svar #42

Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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Attached is a copy of a 1710 death record.  Can anyone confirm/complete my translation?

I believe it says:

Bengt Larsson's son i Uhlarp Lars ? ? ?, 17 July 1710, 12 weeks old. 

Thanks for your help,

Vicki

2021-01-15, 23:29
Svar #43

Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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Lars-Ola,

Since you are the expert here (and I'm not) no doubt you are correct when you say that the Lars Bengtsson born in Norrets torp in 1714 is probably not the son of Bengt Larsson, but more likely the son of your ancestor Bengt Torsson.  This is indicated both by the court record of the his purchase of the homestead in 1714 and also by the 1718-1723 household record in Annerstad that indicated the family have moved back to Angelstad. I have found no proof that Bengt Larsson and Kirstin Pärsdotter were living there in 1714.

Thanks for sending the information,

Vicki

2021-01-15, 23:34
Svar #44

Utloggad Martin Brandt

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... Larß beledsagadeß till Jorden ...


Don't know how to translate that

2021-01-15, 23:37
Svar #45

Utloggad Yvonne Stenberg

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It says
Bängdt Larssons son i Ularp
Lars Beledsagades till Jorden
12 weckor gamal       - - - d 17 Julj

meaning
Bengt Larsson's son in Ularp Lars was followed to earth 12 weeks old on July 17.

And yes, it should be the Lars born 1709, as there has been no sign of another Bengt Larsson in Ularp that year.

As regards the Lars in Norretstorp, there was a wife Kerstin Persdotter there 1712?  Lars was born in February 1714 and the sale was made in August - could be any of the families. If Lars born 1714 is the same as Lars Lundman it should be your Bengt's Lars judging from the witnesses at baptism - but maybe you will never know for sure.

/Yvonne

2021-01-16, 00:09
Svar #46

Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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Thanks, Yvonne!  And Martin, I appreciate your honesty.  ;D

Yes, Martin had mentioned that he saw Kirstin Pärsdotter as a witness in Norretstorp - see 4.

Göta-Hovrätt--Advokatfiskalen-Jönköpings-län-F-EVIIAABA-372-1712-Image-970-Page-185
https://app.arkivdigital.se/volume/v323935?image=970&page=185

You're correct that I don't know exactly when Bengt Larrson left or Bengt Torsson came, but I'm guessing he has a lot more tools to determine the timing.  :)

Thank you also for the clarification on the 1710 death record.  I like the way you summed it up! 

Citera
If Lars born 1714 is the same as Lars Lundman it should be your Bengt's Lars judging from the witnesses at baptism
  That is perfect!!

Well, I have a lot that I can document now and my main questions answered.

Thank you Yvonne, Lars-Ola and Martin!  You're great!

Vicki

2021-01-16, 23:12
Svar #47

Utloggad Martin Brandt

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Mtl 1648
Östenstorp Her Gudmundh [Canuti, komminister in Angelstad]
Kierstin Nillsdotter
Mantalslängder 1642-1820 Kronobergs län 1642-1820 (G) 7 (1648) Bild 1960 / sid 381 (AID: v840131.b1960.s381, NAD: SE/RA/5520306)


Mtl 1655
h. Kerstin och dotter Brijtta
dräng Nills
Mantalslängder 1642-1820 Jönköpings län 1643-1820 (F) 13 (1655) Bild 1820 / sid 1096 (AID: v843393.b1820.s1096, NAD: SE/RA/5520305)


1657
Östenstorp
Lars Bengtßon
Angelstads kyrkoarkiv, Räkenskaper för kyrkan. Äldre allmän odelad serie samt huvudräkenskaper., SE/VALA/00013/L I a/1 (1632-1704), bildid: C0065290_00036


Mtl 1657+1658+1659
Östentorp h. Kirstin, d: Nilß
Mantalslängder 1642-1820 Kronobergs län 1642-1820 (G) 15 (1658) Bild 1190 / sid 279 (AID: v840139a.b1190.s279, NAD: SE/RA/5520306)


Mtl 1660+1661
Östantorp h. Kierstin dreng Lars
Mantalslängder 1642-1820 Kronobergs län 1642-1820 (G) 17 (1660) Bild 680 / sid 334 (AID: v840141a.b680.s334, NAD: SE/RA/5520306)


1661
Östentorp Lars Bengtß. i Test. effter Sal. H. Kirstin och Bårekl.
Angelstads kyrkoarkiv, Räkenskaper för kyrkan. Äldre allmän odelad serie samt huvudräkenskaper., SE/VALA/00013/L I a/1 (1632-1704), bildid: C0065290_00043


1662
Östantorp d. Lars
Källa: Mantalslängder 1642-1820 Kronobergs län 1642-1820 (G) 19 (1662) Bild 520 / sid 276 (AID: v840143.b520.s276, NAD: SE/RA/5520306)


1664
Östenstorp d. Anders brukas aff Pastore
Mantalslängder 1642-1820 Kronobergs län 1642-1820 (G) 21 (1664) Bild 930 / sid 435 (AID: v840145a.b930.s435, NAD: SE/RA/5520306)


1664
Östentorp Lars Bengtson
Angelstads kyrkoarkiv, Räkenskaper för kyrkan. Äldre allmän odelad serie samt huvudräkenskaper., SE/VALA/00013/L I a/1 (1632-1704), bildid: C0065290_00048


1666
Staffsiö Lars Bengtßon
Angelstads kyrkoarkiv, Räkenskaper för kyrkan. Äldre allmän odelad serie samt huvudräkenskaper., SE/VALA/00013/L I a/1 (1632-1704), bildid: C0065290_00051


1668
Angelstadh Lars Bengtß
Angelstads kyrkoarkiv, Räkenskaper för kyrkan. Äldre allmän odelad serie samt huvudräkenskaper., SE/VALA/00013/L I a/1 (1632-1704), bildid: C0065290_00055


1668
Lars hustru Bengta i Angelstad
Mantalslängder 1642-1820 Kronobergs län 1642-1820 (G) 25 (1668) Bild 1210 / sid 649 (AID: v840149a.b1210.s649, NAD: SE/RA/5520306)




Summary:


  • Lars Bengtsson lived in Östenstorp between atleast 1657-1664. He was a farm worker for the widow (Kierstin Nilsdotter) of the vicar in Angelstad Gudmundus Canuti. Lars gave money to the chuch in 1661 for her burial clothes, his money or her money?
  • In 1662 he was unmarried.
  • Sometime between 1664/1668 he moved to Angelstad södergård, and his wife was called Bengta. Possibly moved at the time he married? Bengta is probably the mother of Bengt Larsson.
  • If he is the same Lars Bengtsson as is mentioned in Staffsiö 1666, why was he there? Was his wife from Stafsiö? If so, Bengta might be the daughter of Sven Svensson and Britta in Stafsiö. Note that Bengt Larsson has children called Sven and Britta. Britta died around 1666 (mtl 1667). All of this is speculation.


2021-01-17, 15:46
Svar #48

Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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Hi Martin,

Thank you so much for this great information!  You pose some very interesting questions!

It is often a struggle for me to understand these very early tax records so I really appreciate this information and the summary you provided.  Also, I don't know anything about the church books (Räkenskaper för kyrkan) and how to use them so this is very helpful.

I will take a close look at each of these records and document them for future reference in case we are able to learn more in the future to substantiate it.

It is all very interesting!

Thank you again for sending all of this,

Vicki


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