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Författare Ämne: Help with location and names  (läst 811 gånger)

2020-02-21, 21:21
läst 811 gånger

Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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Ulf Svensson has kindly confirmed that I have read the marriage record for Samuel Hansson correctly!  Now I have further questions about Samuel Hansson - in regard to where he was born.  I followed the family through the Torpa household exam records, but was having trouble locating a birth record for Samuel Hansson - nothing in Torpa (where they raised their family)  or Annerstad (where they were married).  I finally found a clue in the last 2 household records for the (widower) Samuel Hansson, both records are attached.  I cannot figure out what is written for his birth location on the 1822-1826 record, but the 1827-1832 record seems to read Skatelöf.  The final record, if I'm reading it correctly, also indicates he was very poor.   

Assuming now that he was born in Skatelöv, the only birth record I can find that is close to the 1748 birth year listed on most of the family household exam records, was in 1750 in Krokstorp (or Krogstorp) in Skatelöv.  A copy of that birth record is attached.  Can you confirm my translation that the child's name is Samuel Hansson and the parents are listed as Hans Samuelsson and Elizabeth Månsdtr?  I find the name Hans particularly difficult to decipher.  His mother's patronymic name is also difficult for me. 

Thanks so much for your help!

Vicki Cihla

2020-02-21, 21:31
Svar #1

Utloggad Ulf Svensson

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Hi,

I'm sorry to say that the fathers name is Pär Samuelsson, as I read it.

2020-02-21, 21:37
Svar #2

Utloggad Ulf Svensson

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In the first image one of the locations is 'Bolmsö'. Have you checked there?

2020-02-21, 21:43
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Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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Oh well.  The household exam record still gives me a clue - can you tell what the birth place listed on the household exam record for 1822-1826 says?  Is it somewhere in Skatelöv?   

Thanks again for replying!

2020-02-21, 21:47
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Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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No, I will check!  Hopefully I'll find a birth record for him there!!

Thanks very much!

2020-02-21, 21:57
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Utloggad Ulf Svensson

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When looking into AI:6 I withdraw the Bolmsö suggestion.

2020-02-21, 22:02
Svar #6

Utloggad Ulf Svensson

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I am chasing you around Småland and into Halland. New suggestion: Unnaryd. I think it is Södra Unnaryd.

2020-02-21, 22:21
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Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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Hi again.  Thanks for that.  You're right, I found no birth record in Bolmsö.  Will now check Unnaryd. (Södra Unnaryd).

2020-02-21, 22:44
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Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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No record found for 1748 in Södra Unnaryd.  The handwriting is very difficult to read so I will have to go through the records multiple times and check surrounding years to make sure, but I don't find anything so far that looks like a child named Samuel. 

Thanks for your help.   

2020-02-21, 22:45
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Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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Was I correct that the 1727-1732 household records lists Skatelöf as his birthplace?

2020-02-21, 22:58
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Utloggad Ulf Svensson

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Yes, it says Skatelöf. But I think/guess that the clerk was reading from the person below Samuel, in the previous book.
You can't take 1748 for true. Quite often the birth time in household exams are very inaccurate.

2020-02-21, 23:10
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Utloggad Ulf Svensson

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Do you know where the children of Samuel are born?
There might be clues in the baptism sponsors names.

2020-02-22, 00:03
Svar #12

Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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Yes, good idea, he had 9 children and I believe I have copies of all their birth records!   I will look at the all of the sponsors information.  I know that the birth years are often inaccurate but I've found most to be within a year before or after, but not always.  Interesting about Skatelöf.  What you say makes sense so I'll rule that one out.   I'll see what the children's sponsors can tell me. 

Thanks for this information!



























































































































































































































































































2020-02-23, 00:58
Svar #13

Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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I've checked the birth records for 1744 through 1749 for Södra Unnaryd parish in Halland county in Smaland.   At the time of Samuel Hansson's death he was (if it is correct) 85 yrs and 3 months old.  That would place his birth year about 1744 or 1745.  I don't find any birth records that would fit.

I have also looked at the sponsors listed on the birth records of his nine children but I cannot see any connection to Halland county but I am not very familiar with this county as all but one of my ancestors have been in Kronoberg county up to this point.  I've attached the 9 birth records.  Would you possibly take a look and see if anything stands out that would suggest that Samuel Hansson might be from this Halland or possible somewhere else? Any help you offer would be greatly appreciated. 

Thanks again.

2020-02-23, 21:48
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Utloggad Ulf Svensson

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Hi,
Took a quick look.
All of the sponsors seems to be from Torpa parish, or at least be living there. I can't read any Hansson or Hansdotter among them. Of course, there could be a Hansson/Hansdotter hidden behind the ones with family names, but it will be huge job to go thru all that.

The lack of Hansson/Hansdotter sponsors might indicate that Samuel comes from far away. There is a Norra Unnaryd some 150 km/100 mi north of Torpa.
Skatelöv might be an option...

2020-02-23, 22:14
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Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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Thank you for taking the time to look at them.  I appreciate it. Noting your thoughts/methods - I also was looking for "Hans.." naming for potential brothers/sisters, but found none.  I will follow up on your further advice and check Norra Unnaryd and further in Skatelöv.  Thanks for all your help! 

2020-02-24, 15:46
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Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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I checked Norra Unnaryd for Samuel Hansson's birth record for the 1741-1754 date range - nothing for him.  I also went back and checked Skatelöv again but found nothing for him. 

Before giving up on finding his birth record, I went through all the household exam records again - there are some notations regarding moving in/out that may help me,unfortunately,  I'm not always clear on which is coming in/out or what some of the page references would mean.  Samuel Hansson also appears on 2 different household records (1801-1805 in both Rånte and Forssa) - not sure what that means.  It appears that the Rånte record lists him as being from Forssa (where the family is listed) but why would he be listed at all in Rånte?  He also moved around over the years.  Would you mind taking a look and see if you can see anything else that might help me figure out where he was born?

1784-1788  Living in Häggeshult Södergård, Torpa, Kronoberg
1896-1800  Living in Forssa, Torpa (their names are crossed out)
1801-1805  Living in Forssa, Torpa but is also referenced in Rånte, Torpa.
1806-1809  Living in Forssa, Torpa (this contains a note that I can't read)
1810-1814  Living in Rånte, Torpa  (confirmation record)
1815-1821  Living at Rya Backstugen, Torpa
1822-1826  Living at Rya Backstugen, Torpa
1827-1832  Living at Rya, Torpa (he died in 1830)

I welcome your insight into what more can be learned from these records.  As always, I appreciate any help you can offer.  Also, please let me know if I should be starting new topics be doing something different to solicit help with this - I'm still a newbie on your forum.   :)

2020-02-25, 01:05
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Utloggad Ulf Svensson

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Hi,
This is what I found in the records you attached.
AI:2, p 297; No extra information.
AI:2, p 411; I can't get anything out of that pale writing to the right. For some reason they had to leave the farm att Häggeshult for the croft or cottage at Forsa. Maybe something could be found in court records? I don't know if they are available on Internet. Torpa is a part of Sunnerbo härad. Riksarkivet is very limited regarding court records for Sunnerbo, Arkiv Digital might have more digitalized.
AI:3, p 23; 82 - matlag ~ household #82 This is an educated guess, hope someone who knows better can tell me wrong. I think the note 'I Ränte 803'  means that they moved to Ränte in 1803.
P 25; Instead of writing the whole family they just wrote Samuel and the old address.
P 63; The note is something about 'Utfattig på ...' Sorry, but I can't read it. Utfattig = Poor, you own nothing
AI:4, p 125; Poor (moved, living) in Måsseboda.
AI:5, p 151; Poor. They are living in a hut on someone elses land 'Backstuga'.No clues to a birthplace.


One way forward could be to place a new topic under Torpa or Annerstad parish asking specificly if someone knows the background and life of Samuel before his marriage to Brita.
Torpa: https://forum.rotter.se/index.php?board=1588.0
Annerstad: https://forum.rotter.se/index.php?board=1379.0

Present what you know about him and the source for the earliest find of him in the books.
Maybe someone out there can make a search in the KGF database (KGF, Kronobergs Genealogiska Förening (Kronoberg Genealogical Society) and come up with some candidates.
https://genealogi-kgf.se/
I wish you the best of luck in finding Samuel.

2020-02-25, 03:39
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Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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Thank you so much for helping me with this.  I will check out what ArkivDigital has for court records and I follow up with inquiries to Torpa and Annerstad to see if anyone can fill me in on his life prior to his marriage. 

It is so interesting, I do hope I can find out more about him.

Thanks again!

2020-02-25, 22:19
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Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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I found the 1810-1814 household record for Samuel Hansson in Måsseboda!  It is interesting because of the note by his daughter Anna.  Is she a tjänare (servant) in Vrå?   Please correct me if I am wrong.

I added a new topic on both the Torpa and Annerstad forums asking for information on Samuel Hansson.  I also emailed a request to KGF regarding Samuel Hansson.  I actually was a member of KGF back in 2002 but that was the latest information I have on him from them. I'm eager to see if they have more information now.

Attached is a new copy of the note on the 1806-1809 household record for Samuel Hansson with the hope that it is a little easier to read - unfortunately, the original record is rather blurry.

I don't know anything about using the court records, but ArkivDigital has what looks like a lot of years, for example 1608-1624, then it looks like they start up again at 1769, Sunnerbo häradsrätt AIa:, but not every year is there.  I know so little about these books, that not sure if there's more here or not.  If you give me a clue what I should be looking for,  I'll take another look!  :)

2020-02-25, 22:22
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Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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I did it again!  Here's the correct 1st attachment...

2020-02-25, 23:20
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Utloggad Ulf Svensson

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Hi again,
Anna is serving as piga in Näs; https://sok.riksarkivet.se/bildvisning/C0025919_00073
The number in 'Moved to', 17, is her age.

I looked up the note, about 'utfattig...', in the book at Riksarkivet but I can't make anything out of it. Maybe Arkiv Digital, AD, have a better image. Riksarkivet use the old mormon films, from the 50's, in most cases. AD always take new photos of the books. There are some really skilled 'readers' at the forum. Maybe it should worth doing a new topic just for that note under Läshjälp/help reading?

I have very little experience from court records myself so I am not much of a help. It requires a lot of reading effort to find what you are looking for since there is no register of the cases/errands. Some initiatives are made to create searchable registers but I can't tell the status for Sunnerbo härad. AD is the most likely supplier to create/publish such registers.

Whith my limited knowledge of court records I would read the books for the years around when they had to leave Häggeshult. Is there a case regarding Samuel owing money or not paying the leasing fee/interest rate for the farm? If you are really lucky the debts go back in the family and there will be an inquest/historic description of how the case evolved over the years, but this is a real longshot in the dark.
Changed 23.59/US

2020-02-25, 23:30
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Utloggad Leif Lundkvist

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What was the question about the last record Ulf showed? If it is moved from, the answer is Måsseboda.

2020-02-25, 23:53
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Utloggad Ulf Svensson

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It was just a clarification of Anna's move from Måsseboda to Näs.

2020-02-26, 01:30
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Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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Thank you for that.  I'm a little confused about the definition of piga - it is often used on marriage records for the bride - so I thought it meant a woman that had never been previously married (miss or maiden).  What does it mean to be a "piga" in Nås?  Is she working as a servant?  I have done a lot of Norwegian research in the past and the children of poorer families often went to work for other families.  I was completely inaccurate with the word and place :) !   This old handwriting is really a challenge for me.

The image for the note  'utfattig...' came from AD.  I know that they redo most of the images so I am surprised on the quality of the particular one.  It might be a good idea, as you suggested, for me to put it out as a new inquiry of its own.  Maybe someone can decipher it!

I recently contacted AD about how look up something in the court records and received the following response:

"There aren't any registers for the court books where you can search by a name and find a court record.
If an ancestor went to court for some reason, it was usually written in the household record/congregation book. It said for what reason someone was convicted by the court, what court is was and usually a date. This is the entry to the court book to start search for the judgement."

With that response I knew it would be a shot in the dark.   It's still worth a try though.  It would be nice if there was an indication on one of the household records that there was a case at all ..  I have added it to my list of things to do.   :D 

Thanks again!

2020-02-26, 11:58
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Utloggad Yvonne Stenberg

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There was a Samuel Hansson born in Gällenäs in Södra Unnaryd 1745 Sept 29. I think he can be your Samuel.


Södra Unnaryd (F, N) CI:2 (1703-1799) Bild 122 / sid 225
Possible birth record for Samuel
(Note that one of the present are Per Johansson from Skinnebo in Bolmsö parish).


Södra Unnaryd (F, N) CI:2 (1703-1799) Bild 122 / sid 225
His father remarried 1739 July 2nd. His new wife, Samuel's mother, was then from Hölminge in Angelstad parish.


From the Household examination rolls:


Södra Unnaryd (F, N) AI:2 (1730-1748) Bild 130 / sid 249

Gällenäs in Södra Unnaryd (=Järanäs)
1730-39
Hans Persson
Wife 1 Elisabet Eliasdotter dead abt 1737
Son Elias Hansson
Daughter (Sahra?) Hansdotter (married)
Son Per Hansson


1740-48
Hans Persson
Wife Ingierd Johansdotter
Son Per Hansson
   
Södra Unnaryd (F, N) AI:3 (1749-1765) Bild 183 / sid 351

Gällenäs/Järanäs
1749-1753
Hans Persson born (baptized?) 1685 1st of January
wife Ingier Johansdotter 1714 Sept
Son Samuel Hansson 1745 Sept 29
Daughter Elisabet Hansdotter 1754 Oct 27   (maybe she who died in Kärragård in Bolmsö parish 1821 Feb 11)
All moved to Odensjö parish in 1758


You will have to trace them from there to make sure it is the correct family.


Best regards,
Yvonne


2020-02-26, 13:42
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Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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Thank you so much for the extensive information!!  I would never have found all of this and I really appreciate all of it.  I will verify everything but I do believe this is correct. 

Thank you to all who have helped solve this mystery - I'm very grateful for your help!

Vicki Cihla

2020-02-26, 14:16
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Utloggad Yvonne Stenberg

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If this family is correct you can get further back in time:


Södra Unnaryd (F, N) CI:1 (1679-1747) Bild 15 / sid 10
Hans was from Elgnäs when he first married


Södra Unnaryd (F, N) AI:1 (1703-1717) Bild 31 / sid 37
Älgnäs 1703
Pär Larsson
Wife Britta Hansdotter
Son Hans Pärsson
Daughter Kirstin Pärsdotter


Södra Unnaryd (F, N) AI:1 (1703-1717) Bild 50 / sid 75
Hans with Elisabeth in his new family


2020-02-26, 14:33
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Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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Thank you SO VERY much!  I will check everything out! 

2020-02-26, 21:12
Svar #29

Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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Hi Yvonne,

A couple questions to begin with:

Do I document Södra Unnaryd as Halland or Jönköping lån?

Regarding the presence of Per Johansson on Samuel Hansson's birth record - are you suggesting that he could be either his father's father (grandfather) or his mother's brother?  More likely his father's father since he is from Bolmsö parish? - a parish associated with Samuel Hansson after he became a widower ??   Of course I will check this out!  It is so interesting.  I would never have been able to read that name on birth record as I am so unfamiliar with this county! 

Thanks so much for this help!  I likely will have more questions!

Vicki

2020-02-26, 21:55
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Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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Hi again, Yvonne.

I can't find the July 2, 1739 marriage record for Hans Persson and Ingierd Johansdotter in Sodrå Unnaryd or in Angelstad parish in Kronoberg.  I found a July 2, 1739 in Sodrå Unnaryd but it was not for Hans and Ingierd, not sure what I'm doing wrong here.  Can you correct me?

Thanks!

Vicki

2020-02-26, 23:45
Svar #31

Utloggad Kristina Gunnarsdotter

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The marriage date is 1739, October 29, see bottom of the page.
Södra Unnaryd (F, N) EI:1 (1738-1770) Bild 32 / sid 55 (AID: v93434.b32.s55, NAD: SE/LLA/13393)

2020-02-27, 01:11
Svar #32

Utloggad Victoria Cihla

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Thanks very much!

Vicki Cihla

 

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