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Författare Ämne: 1746-1748 death of Georg Camitz  (läst 458 gånger)

2019-03-31, 12:27
läst 458 gånger

Utloggad Luke Ronlund

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I am searching for any record at all for the death of a Georg (or Gioran or variation of name) Camitz (or Kammits or Kametz or variation of name). His death occurred definitely between the years 1746-1747, most likely in the parish region of Kristinehamn of Värmlands. But his wife Elisabet BECKMAN apparently had roots in Örebro län so I am not absolutely sure about the place of death for Georg. Attached is their marriage record. I have some other later records of Georg Camitz for the births of his children, but it is very much a death record for a Georg Camitz that I am seeking. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
With sincere apologies for my use of English rather than Swedish

2019-03-31, 23:07
Svar #1

Utloggad Kristina Gunnarsdotter

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Here is the death of a Georg Camitz in 1785 at the age of 62 years and 5 months.

ArkivDigital, reference:
Kristinehamn FI:2 (1758-1824) Bild 79 / sid 149 (AID: v7294.b79.s149, NAD: SE/VA/13289)
Riksarkivet, link:
https://sok.riksarkivet.se/bildvisning/C0037979_00085

I used the death register for Kristinehamn to find the records and sources. These registers are only available in ArkivDigital. (I think.)

2019-04-01, 03:58
Svar #2

Utloggad Luke Ronlund

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Hi Kristina1. Thank you for your searching however you have identified another Georg Camitz within the family tree. There were a number of descendants of the Camitz family patriarch Georg Camitz (born 1623 and dying 1687) who shared the name.  The Georg Camitz I am seeking the death record for was married to Elisabet Beckman per the photo I attached. He appears to have died about 1747 as he had no further children with his wife, tax records ended for him, and a 1747 parish notation for "Georen Kametz" indicating his death along with naming his wife "Lisa Beckman" and sons "Lars" and "Anders". 

I am hoping that a record for his death may give clues as to his Date of Birth (or age at death) which will then allow me to clarify where he fits in the family tree in relation to the original Camitz patriarch.
With sincere apologies for my use of English rather than Swedish

2019-04-01, 17:51
Svar #3

Utloggad Kristina Gunnarsdotter

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According to this text the two eldest sons of Johan Camitz died young:
http://runeberg.org/strokirk/1/0098.html

The older discussion on Camitz could be interesting and avoid double work:
https://forum.rotter.se/index.php?topic=69256.0

2019-04-02, 00:37
Svar #4

Utloggad Luke Ronlund

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kristina1... Thank you so much for your interest in my questions (and dillema). :)  It is a very difficult investigation. :)   But I think it is a line of research very much worth following as it seems to be a big hole existing in all current research and printed documentation.

The thing is, I do have a Georg Camitz who was definitely alive in the early 1700s, who  was married to Elisabet BECKMAN (and I have a copy of his marriage record), and who fathered at least 5 children with Elizabeth/Lisa  being 1735 Lars, 1737 Brita Greta, 1738 Lars-Georgien, 1740 twins Anders Georgsson & Giöran (for whom I have copies of their birth records). And from all other available information, he died about 1747 though no actual death record has been found so far.

He is a mystery so far as no other researcher, or book that I have found, can place him in the family tree of original and famous Iron master Georg Camitz (1623-1687).

But he existed, had the unusual name of CAMITZ, also had some considerable standing in the community, and was also involved in the Iron mill business in the same region of Sweden.

As we discussed briefly before, there is an 11 May 1709 birth record (with 14 May baptism) for twins Georg & Christina with father being “Johan Camitz” and mother “Maja”. The witnesses to that birth/baptism include the names “Clara Camitz”, “Sara Camitz, “Maja Ekebohm” “Stina Wester”. Is it logical to assume then that the parents of these twin children were the same Johan Camitz (1681-1741) that was married to Maria Wester (1681-1761). But if so, then why is this 11 May 1709 birth information not included in the book transcript (author Oscar Fredrik Strokirk) which you kindly posted earlier?  Is it possible that the author Strokirk did not have all the facts when he wrote his book in the late 1800s? Remembering that at the time Strokirk wrote his book, he would not have had access to the vast amount of digitalised information currently available, or the powerful search tools we now have.   So if we were to take the 18th century authors book as definitive knowledge, who then were the parents Johan Camitz and wife Maria, who had twin children all with Camitz, Ekebohm and Wester witnesses to their birth?

IF the Georg Camitz I am researching was not the eldest twin son of Johan Camitz (1681-1741), then who was he in relation to the patriarch Georg Camitz (1623-1687)? There is another possibility and that is that the Georg Camitz I am researching (and who died about 1747), may have been a child born in 1674 of the second marriage of the patriarch Georg Camitz (1623-1687). But I am yet to find out any definite information on the existance of that child. And there may yet be other Georg Camitz alive in that period of time, but I have only the two possible "suspects" at the moment. :)

Yes, krinstina1, I have looked through that older thread many times. I does not provide any assistance in clarifying the existence of a Georg CAMITS who definitely existed with documented marriage and children (according to original parish records). But so far, I have found no researcher or book with any mention of him.
So I am very much left wondering, "who was he"?  :)
With sincere apologies for my use of English rather than Swedish

2019-04-02, 00:50
Svar #5

Utloggad Luke Ronlund

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Available documents for Georg Camitz married to Elisabet Beckman and who died about 1747....
With sincere apologies for my use of English rather than Swedish

2019-04-14, 12:30
Svar #6

compleo

I have an idea where we should place this "Örebro" -Georg Camitz. At least from 1718 (as acting sponsor to baptism) a Georg Camitz lived in Degernäs in Karlskoga socken.

According to tax records:
1720 Giöran Camitz "skrivare"
1722 Göran Camitz "skrivare"
1723 "skrivare" with no name
1724 "skrivare" with no name
1725 Göran Camitz "skrivare"
1726 Göran "skrivare"
1727 Göran "skrivare"
1728 Göran Gedda "skrivare"
1729 Göran Göransson "skrivare"
1730 Georg Camitz "skrivare"
1731 Georg Camitz "skrivare"
1732 Georg Camitz "skrivare"
1733 Georg Camitz "bokhållare"
1734 Georg Camitz "bokhållare"
1735 No Camitz
1736 No Camitz

According to a judgment in the court of Karlskoga bergslag 1728 extra order that concerns a dispute over Georg Camitz's children in the first and second marriage all the heirs are mentioned. But there no place to put him, there was only two male lines "living" Johan Camitz one and his brother Gustaf two sons Gustaf and Johan.

Since Göran Camitz lived with "brukspatron" Anders Ahrenberg (which was married to Mathias Camitz widow) he should still belong to this family.

Mathias Camitz hade two sons, "landsfiskal" Olof Camitz dead unmarried i Mariestad 1704 [https://sok.riksarkivet.se/bildvisning/C0037986_00158] and a son "kvartermästare" Göran Camitz who died in captivity after the Battle of Poltava, Georg Camitz did not get his father's inheritance because he was out in field 1703 when his stepfather Anders Ahrenberg was enter marriage with Mathias Camitz widow. This according to court book in Kristinehamn.
Kristinehamns rådhusrätt och magistrat (S) AIa:33 (1720) Bild 125 / sid 249 (AID: v66289.b125.s249, NAD: SE/VA/11934)

According to a another judgement i Kristinehamn, 1701, a Annika Gädda had under the promise of marriage of a Jurgen Camitz had a child, Camitz was now in field in "Livland" and Annika to her took her punishment.
Göta Hovrätt - Advokatfiskalen Värmlands län (S) EVIIBAA:1576 (1701) Bild 380 (AID: v279182.b380, NAD: SE/VALA/0382503)

This Jurgen Camitz could not be mayor Georg Camitz son Georg Camitz that was civil and in Bergskollegium and who died in Kristinehamn 1697.

According to Hjalmar Lindér Örebro Skeppare Embetes Årskrönika åren 1689-1872 published in Meddelanden från Föreningen Örebro läns museum VI (1916), Georg Camitz was skipper in Örebro and his widow is mentioned 1746 2/12 so he must have died that year.


2019-05-02, 02:46
Svar #7

Utloggad Luke Ronlund

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BREAKTHROUGH!!!    Thank you so much "compleo". That information has helped me so VERY VERY much. Now the investigation continues with much excitement and determination!!!  :)
With sincere apologies for my use of English rather than Swedish

2019-08-17, 09:21
Svar #8

compleo

Luke,

It would be easier if you provide proof that Georg Camitz was the father of the soldier Anders Brunman, before you spend too much time on the Camitz. According to military records Anders Brunman was 24 1/4 years old in 1770 27/7, in other words born about 1746. What i can see from your earlier posts,the only evidence that Anders Camitz and Anders Brunman are one and the same person is the name Anders, that both were born in the 1740s and the place of birth Örebro.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but the evidence is far from enough to be able to verify that it's the same person. It would be good if you develop your reasoning or if you have received this information from another researcher.

It looks like there are several others who asked about Anders Brunman, have you tried to contact them?

http://www.malax.org/westside/oldside/discus/messages/16/523.html?1114158997
http://www.örebrosläktforskare.se/images/stories/SA/SA43.pdf

In my point of view there is an obvious way to proceed, according to military records, there is a note that Anders Brunman know the craft of shoemaking. If Anders Brunman was born in Örebro, there should be a birth record proof in Örebro's court book. There may also be evidence in "Skrå arkiv" for shoemakers.

https://sok.riksarkivet.se/bildvisning/K0000768_00303

Regards

Niklas

2019-08-18, 10:41
Svar #9

Utloggad Luke Ronlund

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Hi Niklas. Thank you VERY much for your thoughts and directions. I have been looking very hard at the Anders Camitz/Anders Brunman relationship for over 10 years now (including a 1st hand trip to Finland). To say that it is frustrating is an understatement!  :)

re: the Date of Birth for the soldier Anders BRUNMAN. On it's own, this is a point of contention and not as straight forward as might seem. The earliest record for Anders BRUNMAN (and his wife) provide different dates of birth to later records (for them both).  Strange that both he and his wife had different dates of birth in church records in earliest records (1740 & 1744 respectively) to that of later records (1746 & 1748 respectively). While the 1770 military record identifies his age as 24 1/4 (which as you have correctly calculated, places his DOB as 1746), the records of commune/residence for the same time clearly identify his year of birth as 1740 with his wife's as 1744.  This difference has had me perplexed and the reason I began searching very hard for any records to definitively place his actual Date of Birth which I also hoped with definitively identify his surname before joining the military. Were it not for the identification of Örebro as place of birth in the soldier record, I would have no direction at all. As an aside, the earliest record that I can find for Anders BRUNMAN in Ostrobothnia to date, is his 1768 intention to marry. 
With sincere apologies for my use of English rather than Swedish

2019-08-18, 13:30
Svar #10

compleo

Well, craft of shoemaking is the key. Because when entering learning of all crafts you needed a proof of your own birth. It was not enough to show their own notes, but it required proof from the corresponding court area the person was born in. Therefore, there should be great hopes to find who Anders Brunman's parents are.

Exemple:

Tillfällighetsfynd. 
 
I den renoverade domboken för Örebro och Södermanlands län , volym 57, Jönåkers härad, fol. 1081r, 1704-10-04, beviljas bördsbrev för Nils Mattsson Skoug till det lovliga Guldsmedsämbetet i Stockholm. Han sägs född 1688 i Bohsbohl i Björkvik, föräldrar befallningsman Matts Mattsson och Christina Frigill. Vittnen till dopet var salig magister Nils Mar(?)helius pastor i Blackstad, arrendatorn på Lindö Anders Nilsson, slottsfogdens moder hustru Ebba Elsundia, fru hovmästarinnan Merta Berentz piga Annika Johansdotter.
 
Svea Hovrätt - Advokatfiskalen Örebro län EXIe:1833 (1704-1704) Bild 10900 / sid 1081 (AID: v494105.b10900.s1081, NAD: SE/RA/42042202)

Ask under the appropriate topic here on the forum how to proceed to find the birth certificate or contact Örebro City Archive.

2019-08-18, 14:30
Svar #11

Utloggad Luke Ronlund

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Thank you very much for all your help Niklas. Especially the suggestion re: the craft of shoemaking. Now I need to find some-one with familiarity (expertise) in information on this craft.  :) However...... if BRUNMAN was an assigned soldier name, it might be a bit more difficult....
With sincere apologies for my use of English rather than Swedish

2019-08-18, 14:54
Svar #12

compleo

Yes, the search will be made more difficult because the search must be done against an Anders N.N, born around 174x. It should at least be able to give answers to all Anders who learned the craft of shoemaking. Which is a prerequisite for being Anders Brunman.

If you look at other soldiers, for example, one is stated to be born in Roslagen and another in Norrtälje which can be interpreted "Örebro" for Örebro city.

 

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