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Författare Ämne: How to find a record listed on DISBYT database  (läst 2382 gånger)

2016-06-06, 02:06
läst 2382 gånger

Utloggad Christopher Small

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Could someone please help me find a record that is listed on the DISBYT database but when I go to the Kalmar Landsforsamling Book C:2 there is no birth record listed.
I have already try contacting the person who uploaded the record but have not received any reply.


The person I am looking for was a Caroline Gustavsson who married a Olof Sholin on 24 Dec 1894 in Columbus, Cherokee, Kansas, USA and died 25 Nov 1924 at White Salmon, Washington, USA, so the DISBYT seems to be the correct person.



Any help would be greatly appreciated.


This is what is showing on the record.


Caroline Gustavsson b 1863 Kalmar Landsförsamling, Kalmar län (**) ; m 1894 Kansas, US (*) ; d 1924 Washington, US (**) ;









2016-06-06, 10:36
Svar #1

Utloggad John Bentley

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There is a tree on Ancestry with this family with her born as Carolina Gustavsdotter on 16 May 1860 in Kalmar.  So I can see a tree on Disbyt back for the Sjölin side, and a tree on Ancestry back 3 generations for Carolinas father, Carl Gustav Jonassons side.  There is a good fit in the detail where it overlaps for the 2 trees, though Ancestry includes more precise dates etc.  Let me know if you do not have access to the Ancestry tree.
John

2016-06-06, 13:35
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Utloggad Göran Ignell

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In the Swedish emigrant database EMIBAS there is Karolina Gustafsdotter born May 16, 1860 in Torsås, Kalmar län. She emigrated June 11, 1881 from the place Kulebo, Torsås parish, Kalmar county
This may help you to find her birth record.

2016-06-06, 13:59
Svar #3

Utloggad John Bentley

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Curiously the Carolina born that date in Torsås is found there still in the 1880 Census as Karolina Andersdotter along with mother Elin Månsdotter.  This will take some unravelling, but interesting !

Correction - wrong Carolina - see next posts

2016-06-06, 14:21
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Utloggad Göran Ignell

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John,
what do you mean is curious she be being still in Torsås 1880 when she didn't emigrate until 1881?

2016-06-06, 15:13
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Utloggad John Bentley

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I only first saw one Carlolina who is the one named Andersdotter in 1880.  Not Gustavsdotter/Gustavsson.  But actually, there are two Carolinas born 16/5, both oäkta (illegitimate), mothers name only given, and that certainly is curious !  And how do you know which one is which when they get older? 

However, what ties up with the Ancestry tree is that there the mother is given as Ingrid Carlsdotter, mother of the second of the Carolinas born 16/5 , and the father is given as Carl Gustav Jonasson.  So without knowing how the originator of that tree got the information, we have the mother and daughter identified with the second Carolina entry in Torsås CI:9 on 16/5, and a father who would have a daughter either Carlsdotter or Gustavsdotter.

2016-06-06, 16:18
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Utloggad Monica E Nilsson

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Hello Christopher!
.
Carolina Andersson/dotter died, 19 february, 1931
.
Source: Swedish Index 1901-2013

Andersson, Karolina
S. Vram 20
Dead 2/19/1931.
Registered in Norra Vram (Malmöhus län, Skåne).
Born 5/16/1860 in Torsås (Kalmar län, Småland).
Unmarried woman.
Corresponding parishes as of Jan 1, 2014:
Bjuv, Bjuvs kn (Skåne län, Skåne)
Parish of birth in the records:
Torsås (Kalmar)
Source records:
DB, FS
.
Regards Monica E Nilsson :D

2016-06-06, 16:54
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Utloggad Göran Ignell

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So we can conclude that Christopher's Caroline Gustavsson
should be the second of the two Carolinas born in Torsås on May 16th, 1860 and with the supposed father Carl Gustaf Jonasson, or?
Can the correct and emigrated Carolina be traced from Kulebo, Torsås back in time to her birth in the church records? I don't have access to the records for the moment.

It is still somewhat disturbing that the DISBYT record has Caroline as born 1863 in Kalmar landsförsamling.

2016-06-06, 18:12
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Utloggad John Bentley

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Well, I found mother and daughter in 1861-1870, and 1878 on, but the crucial gap needs filling.  So, see Ai:25 p58 and p326.  And then AI:30 p310. Nothing is proven until that is joined up.

2016-06-06, 20:50
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Utloggad Monica E Nilsson

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Hello Christopher, John and Göran!
.
The first Carolina Andersson/dotter, born 16 may, 1860, Hallasjö, Torsås,
Mother: Elin Månsdotter
She got a child, 22 september. 1884, in Hallasjö, Torsås
(see book 1,page 181)
Source: Torsås CI:11 (1876-1894) Bild 111 (AID: v41154.b111
Per, born 22 september, 1884, in Hallasjö, Torsås
Mother: Carolina Andersdotter, book 1, page, 181
See source: Torsås AI:29 (1878-1892) Bild 193 / sid 181, AID: v24181.b193.s181
.
The second Carolina Gustavsdotter, born 16 may, 1860, in Kindbäcksmåla, Torsås.
See source: Torsås AI:24 (1861-1870) Bild 261 / sid 254, AID: v24176.b261.s254
Line, 22, 23 and 24.
See source: Torsås AI:24 (1861-1870) Bild 262 / sid 255 , AID: v24176.b262.s255
Line, 26, 27, 28 and 29.
See source: Torsås AI:25 (1861-1870) Bild 334 / sid 326, AID: v24177.b334.s326
Line, 13 and 14.
See source: Torsås AI:25 (1861-1870) Bild 66 / sid 58, AID: v24177.b66.s58
Line 13, 14, 15, 15, 17 and 18.
See source: Torsås AI:27 (1871-1877) Bild 265 / sid 259, AID: v24179.b265.s259
Line, 8 and 9.
See source: Torsås AI:30 (1878-1892) Bild 316 / sid 310, AID: v24182.b316.s310
Line, 13, 14 and 15.
See source: Torsås BI:4 (1861-1892) Bild 124, AID: v41142.b124
Nr. 49 - 11 june, 1881, Karolina Gustavsdotter, from Kalebo, moved to America
.
All sources Arkiv Digital
.
Regards Monica E Nilsson :D


2016-06-06, 22:22
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Utloggad John Bentley

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"It is still somewhat disturbing that the DISBYT record has Caroline as born 1863 in Kalmar landsförsamling."  Why ? As it says on each page "DISBYT är en andrahandskälla. " It is not infallible.

Equally American records such as marriage and census information can have dates out by one or more years, and places wrong.  And parents names incorrect.  A lot of judgement required.

Anyway we have enough forChristopher to consider.

2016-06-07, 09:24
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Utloggad Göran Ignell

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John,
I agree completely on your statements regarding the fact to be careful with second source information. My experience of the US based databases is exactly that.  Dates are often estimated, spellings of places, names are often interpreted from interviews and/or americanized.
The content of the DISBYT record disturbed me since the year of birth and the parish Kalmar Landsförsamling must have been picked up somewhere.  Maybe from a US based source?  If it had said only Kalmar it would have been  more open.

It could have been interesting to know how the Ancestry tree originator has identified Carolina’s father’s name Carl Gustav Jonasson. Or is it mentioned in the church records that you and Monica have digged in?

Monica,
just a minor remark. According to “Svenska ortnamn” there  is no Kalebo but a Kulebo in the Torsås parish.

2016-06-07, 11:14
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Utloggad John Bentley

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Thanks to Monica for tracking Carolina through the AI registers.

You can see why Carolina escaped to America at the earliest opportunity, that is as soon as she was of-age, 21 yrs and 1 month old!  Being always labelled oäkta and then frånfallna after her  mother died.  That is all identified very clearly in AI:30 s.310, mothers name and emigration date on the same page. She became Gustafsdotter when listed on her own after her mother died.  But we do not know who Gustaf was, or do we ?

There is no question that trees on Disbyt are invariably of high quality.  In contrast Sholin (Sjölin) trees on Ancestry are a mess (as happens with trees on Ancestry).  Some even have Carolina being  from Hungary. Another has the father as Gus Gustavsson!  I have found two that have the father as Carl Gustaf Jonasson from Widebäcksmåla who died 1860-3-2. Who was he ?

The link is that the first named godparent is Jonas Gummersson from Widebäcksmåla, and from AI:21 s.54 he had a son Carl Gustaf, who dies just before Carolinas birth.  Is this evidence that they were engaged/förlovad and he was the father ?  But the connection is there.

Any thoughts ? 

2016-06-07, 23:39
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Utloggad Hans Olof Johansson

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So we can conclude that Christopher's Caroline Gustavsson
should be the second of the two Carolinas born in Torsås on May 16th, 1860 and with the supposed father Carl Gustaf Jonasson, or?

 As far as I can see, there are no hard facts to substantiate the theory that Caroline Sholin, who married Olof Sholin in 1894 and died in1924, would be identical to Carolina Gustafsdotter who was born in Torsås on May 16 1860.


To figure out where Caroline Sholin really came from and when she was born, you'll have to start by examining the information available about her in official US sources.



So far I've found information about her in four different censuses. The first one is the 1895 census in Kansas where her age is given as 30 years, which would place her birth in 1864 or 1865.


According to the United States census of 1900 she was born in May 1862 and immigrated in 1880.


The next US census in 1910 gives her age at the last birthday as 48 years, corresponding to a birth year of 1861 or 1862. The year of immigration is said to be 1881.


Finally, the information about her in the1920 US census is dated January 3 and giving her age at the last birthday as 58, which would probably mean she was born in 1861.



However, the most interesting source is the record of her death (Washington, Select Death Certificates, 1907-1960) with some information that was probably submitted by Caroline's family at the time of her death in 1924:


 
Namn:
Caroline Sholin
[Caroline Gustavson]

 
Kön:
Female (Kvinna)
 
Civilstånd:
Married (Gift)
 
Ålder:
61
 
Uppskattat födelseår:
cirka 1863
 
Dödsdatum:
24 Nov 1924
 
Dödsort:
White Salmon, Klickitat, Washington
 
Fader:
Gus Gustavson
 
Moder:
Caroline Grat...
 
Make/maka:
Olaf Sholin
 

 
 

 
 
 


 
 
*******************************************
* Hans Olof Johansson 
* Uppsala, Sweden   
* http://www.secutor.se/genealogi/  
*******************************************

2016-06-08, 00:16
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Utloggad Hans Olof Johansson

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Looking from the other direction, you'll have to be aware that there were lots of women named Carolina Gustafsson/Gustafsdotter, who emigrated from Sweden to America during this period.

If we assume that Caroline Sholin came from Kalmar County, though I haven't found any trustworthy source for this, you may take a look at this list of records from EmiWeb:
*******************************************
* Hans Olof Johansson 
* Uppsala, Sweden   
* http://www.secutor.se/genealogi/  
*******************************************

2016-06-08, 03:58
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Utloggad Christopher Small

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Thanks everyone for your great help.

My main aim is to find my Great grandfather Gustaf Petersson who arrived in Auckland New Zealand in 1874 and married in 1878.

There is no record of his date of birth or the names of his parents in New Zealand.

Family oral history, which may or may not be correct, says he was a seaman who most likely jumped ship, had a sister called Maria, was at some stage meant to return to Kalmar due to some inheritance but was ill and could not travel.

We do know he came from Kalmar as there are several legal documents in New Zealand that record this.

He would have been born between 1840-1850 but most likely 1843-1846 given the age for him on the birth records of his children.

My sister and I have researched many Gustaf Peterssons from Kalmar, especially from the seaman house but have disproved all the ones we have looked at.

We have no other person from Sweden in our family tree.

As we do not have more details for Gustaf my sister and I have used DNA test to advance the process.

The results of DNA test shows that I am a 3rd-5th cousin match but most likely 4th cousin to a person in the USA who has Carolina Gustavsson as a Great grand parent.

Now a 4th cousin should have a common ancestor who is a Great great great grandparent.

This would mean a common ancestor for both Carolina Gustavsson and Gustaf Petersson who would be there grandparents.

We also have other matches at the same level (3rd-5th cousin match but most likely 4th cousin) with three other people living in Sweden, I am in the process of building their trees to find the common ancestor.

Currently I will look at the Carolina born in Torsås and try an prove or disprove she is the correct one.

An suggestions on how to proceed are very appreciated.

Christopher



2016-06-08, 10:25
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Utloggad John Bentley

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Hans has worked hard, mainly gathering a lot of data seemingly showing how we have all been looking in too narrow a way in the wrong place and for the wrong person.  But while we have all I think just enjoyed doing some research and hopfully helping another, a mystery remains.  For Christopher, the trees on Ancestry seem to require careful study, and contact made with their owners.  For example there is a tree there from a Sholin family member with Caroline born 16 May 1863 in Kalmar town with parents Gus Gustavson and Caroline.  Where did she get this information?  Did she have help from someone in Sweden?  But I have done my bit.  I leave it to others now.

2016-06-08, 23:10
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Utloggad Christopher Small

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Thanks John, I  have looked at the ancestry trees and found most of them to only be guessing at Carolina history.
I have been in contact with Virginia Sholin Smallwood in USA who informed that Carolina parents are often listed as Gus Gustavsson and Caroline Gustavsson because Carolina death certificate listed them this way.

"The information for the death certificate was given by a daughter, Esther Sholin, who was probably guessing the name of her father, based on her mother's maiden name."

I think Hans's work show two thing Carolinna was born in the period 1860-1863 this rules out many on the EmiWeb list.
And secondly that she arrived in USA 1881 meaning she would have left Sweden 1880  or 1881.

If she did come from Kalmar then from the list Carolina born in Torsås is still the most likely.

With regard to John's idea about Carl Gustaf being the father is likely to use the surname Gustafsdotter rather than Carlsdotter?

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2016-06-08, 23:33
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Utloggad John Bentley

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If Carl Gustaf had been alive and had married Carolinas mother, then most definitely she would have been Carlsdotter.  But if he was known to the mother as Gustaf, and she told her daughter that her father was Gustaf, then.......  I quote a precedent from my Swedish family.  My great grandfather was Carl Anders, but was known to the family as Anders.  Its why I was so curious when she was first recorded as Gustavsdotter. 

We might think of a sequence of events.  While her mother was alive she would simply have been oäkta Carolina.  Once her mother had died she would need a second name.  It could have been the same as her mothers.  Butr I can see the priest asking at the annual household meeting, "you must have a proper name, girl, who was your father ?" "My mother said it was Gustaf, sir" "So you will hence be called Gustafsdotter".  I can well believe that happening.  You were named as the priest decreed.  Again I can quote a family precedent, where the priest decided on a boys name that did not follow the normal -son patronymic, because he said, "That is a good name, so you will hence be called ......."

This is all very possible, the first godparent with the dead son being a very strong reason.  Of course there might be another explanation, but .....

2016-09-10, 03:21
Svar #19

Utloggad Christopher Small

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Thanks to everyone for your help.
Since my last post it was suggested to me that there may be a verdict recorded regarding who was the father of Carolina Gustafsdotter born Torsås 16 May 1860.
I have paid for the books
    • Södra Möre häradsrätt AIa:232
    • Södra Möre häradsrätt AIa:233
    • Södra Möre häradsrätt AIa:234

    •  to be copied by ArkivDigitial but as I can not read Swedish I am struggling to find any reference in the books.
      If someone could help that would be greatly appreciated.

     

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