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Skriv ut sidan - Randaberg förbindelse mellan kung Sigurd Jorsalafares dotter och Ragnhild, gift med Norges hertig Skule
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Titel: Randaberg förbindelse mellan kung Sigurd Jorsalafares dotter och Ragnhild, gift med Norges hertig Skule
Skrivet av: M.Sjöström skrivet 2007-02-09, 04:22
Did I understand correctly that it has been DAAE (in NHT 3 R III) who has (first) proposed that genealogical lineage I presented in the start? (= Ragnhild Skuleswife were a daughter of Ragnhild Erlingsdottir)
And that P A MUNCH has (earlier) proposed that Ragnhild Skuleswife's father was Nikolas Kuvung of Giske - in a way that her mother, Nikolas' wife, would have been daughter or Ragnhild Erlingsdottir, herself daughter of Kristin Kingsdaughter?
And that all this, both alternatives, are almost pure guesswork, without any positive proof nor any positive indications of existence of such connection?
The chronology in the Munch scheme is not impossible (though it is tight, imo). King Magnus Erlingson was born in c 1156, thus his full sister, Ragnhild Erlingsdottir, could have been born in previous or next year. (In the Munch scheme, it cannot afford to be any later.)
Ragnhild Erlingsdottir, presumed hat she was not plenty of years younger than her full brother king Magnus, could have given birth to a daughter in mid-1170s; in, say, 1173.
Such daughter may have been married to a probably much elder Nikolas Kuvung, Lord of Giske.
And given birth to a daughter in the first half of 1190s. The probability that Nikolas Kuvung were plenty of years elder than his thus-supposed wife, does not prevent as itself him being father, nor becoming husband (in those days an elderly man rather often married a young woman of 17 or 18 as second or third wife, after previous wife died). As far as I have understood anything about Nikolas Kuvung, he was not dead at that time, but probably lived on until 1217 (which date, if true, speaks for his virility and good health yet in 1190s, irrespective of whether he was, say, in his fifties or sixties already then).
A lady born in the first half of 1190s, for example in 1192, would chronologically and customarily been well-acceptable wife for Skule (born in 1189 or so), but a bit tight fit of having her first child in 1209 or 1210.
Margret Skulesdottir is known to have been engaged in 1219 (barely ten years old, or possibly younger), marriage took place apparently in 1225, and she is attested to having given birth to several children all through 1230s, but to her first child apparently already in 1227 (bith years of her children seem to have been: 1227, 1232, 1234, and 1238). All this points to Margret being born in 1209, or in 1210 at latest.
Whereby her mother should better been born before 1195; rather more likely in 1191 or 1192. Which would be a tight fit to a mother born in 1176, but totally possible for a mother born in, say, 1174 or 1173.
All in all, the proposed longer lineage, Ragnhild Erlingsdottir - wife of Nikolas Kuvung - Ragnhild, daughter of Nikolas - Margret Skulesdottir, would be chronologically feasible, although very tight fit which does not leave much latitude, but practically presumes that each mentioned person was the eldest child of her mother.
But that is yet pure realm of possible, not even that of probable. I am still in want of any positive proof or indication of the existence of the lineage at all.
Would there exist any indications that some landed properties passed along such a lineage:
- that Ragnhild Skuleswife, Skule, or Skulesdottirs, held something tangible inherited from Giske, and from Randaberg, and from Erling Skakke ??
Is there anywhere in near-contemporary sources, or medieval genealogy legends, any information of any children or marriage, or otherwise of any issue, of the Ragnhild mentioned as daughter of Nikolas Kuvung in Fagrskinna cap 215?
And, why is there such an absence on part of Skule, or others, of any mention of Ragnhild Skuleswife descending from Giske or Randaberg or Kingsdaughter Kristin?? Or, is there?
Particularly, as Snorri certainly was giving all possible information to support Skule's position, and as Snorri would have had Skule and his wife to interview on matters related to parentage of the latter, why is there no mention in Snorri about any higher ancestry of hers? Had she been daughter of Nikolas Kuvung, granddaughter of Ragnhild Erlingsdottir, or granddaughter of Kristin Kingsdaughter, granddaughter Erling Skakke, certainly such would somehow have been mentioned by Snorri somewhere in Magnus Erlingson Saga or other pertinent place, wouldn't it?
Regarding dispensation, such would rather easily been granted to a marriage between partners as distantly related as in 4th degree of consanguinity. Of course, if there is no proof of existence of such dispensation in the well-kept ecclesiastical registers, it would mean (1) that the granted dispensation did somehow not find its way to register (which is possible), or (2) that the couple married without dispensation, not at the time remembering the connection (which also is possible). Besides, there is always the mystery of Pal of Giske, Nikolas' father, not being mentioned among Skopti's children in some places where all his sons dying en route in Mediterranean when in pilgrimage are carefully listed name by name. What if Pal was a more distant (agnatic) relative of the Giske chieftain dynasty than son of Skopti.
Ragnhild was, as far as I have understood, relatively favored name in Norway of those days, not rare nor limited to one or a few families. Thus, the mere repetition of the name Ragnhild should not be taken as positive indication of one Ragnhild being necessarily daughter or granddaughter of another Ragnhild. Certainly, were there proof positive of even an indication of that lineage's existence, onomastica of Ragnhild would add credibility; but onomastics alone in regard to commonality of Ragnhild would not suffice as positive indication of existence of kinship.