Anbytarforum
Särskilda ämnen & övrigt => Discussions in English => General questions => Ämnet startat av: Mark Peterson skrivet 2019-07-15, 07:47
-
Hi, I’m. After help locating all of the below people’s, birth and death certificates especially for Maja Caisa Safgren. She had a boy named Johan Peter in 1777 with her partner Brt. or BET. Palmstrom in the Uppsala area. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Also need help with Johan Peter Palmstrom’s fathers 1st name please. Link attached. thx Fetchitnow
https://sok.riksarkivet.se/bildvisning/C0004339_00089#?c=&m=&s=&cv=88&xywh=478%2C1419%2C1979%2C2808
-
She was born 1755 in Uppsala. It's a little complicated but her father was trädgårdsdräng (garden worker) Johan Kiälgren. He later changed job to ryttare, rider, probably in the military, and changed last name to Säfgren. Her mother was Catharina "Caisa" Lenström.
https://sok.riksarkivet.se/bildvisning/C0004338_00159#?c=&m=&s=&cv=158&xywh=-805%2C555%2C5148%2C2479 (https://sok.riksarkivet.se/bildvisning/C0004338_00159#?c=&m=&s=&cv=158&xywh=-805%2C555%2C5148%2C2479)
You will find them in this house exam:
https://sok.riksarkivet.se/bildvisning/C0004214_00529#?c=&m=&s=&cv=528&xywh=-388%2C2290%2C4359%2C2066 (https://sok.riksarkivet.se/bildvisning/C0004214_00529#?c=&m=&s=&cv=528&xywh=-388%2C2290%2C4359%2C2066)
When Johan Peter was born in 1777 Maja Caisa and P. Almström, whatever his first name was, was not married. That's why Maja Caisa and her child moved back with her parents. But they mixed things up in the book, it isn't Maja Caisa that was born in 1776, it's her son, and I don't understand why they think he was born in Denmark and wrong year, maybe she had two childs.
-
The text in Uppsala domkyrkoförsamling (C) AIa:3a (1780-1790) sid 510 (easier to read in Arkiv Digitals photo1) sez:
NB oäckta dotter f. i. Danmark 1776
Dottren Maria Cajsa f.i. Danmark 1776
translated:
NB out-of-wedlock daughter born in Danmark 1776
Daughter Maria Cajsa b[orn] i[n] Danmark 1776
There's a parish called Danmark, just outside of Uppsala, but there's no obvious birth notice for a daughter fitting the description.
mvh /staffan
1 AID: v126490.b516.s510 (http://www.arkivdigital.se/aid/show/v126490.b516.s510)
-
Maybe Johan Säfgren had a mistress in Danmark, the country or the parish, and got another daughter, also named Maria/Maja Caisa?
-
Wow you guys are good. So how do I find out what Maja Casia Safgren’s husbands name was? Brt. palmstrom on FamilySearch and other people on forum have said is an abbreviation Bet.
https://sok.riksarkivet.se/bildvisning/C0004339_00089#?c=&m=&s=&cv=88&xywh=478%2C1419%2C1979%2C2808
Thx
-
https://www.familysearch.org/search/hrsearch?givenname=Maria%20Casia&surname=Safgren&birth_place=Sweden&birth_year_from=1754&birth_year_to=1756&collection_id=1520594&gender=F&count=20&offset=0
2nd one down from top. Maria Catharine Safgren had a boy named Lars Gustav on the 10th March 1781 in DANMARK, UPPSALA, SWEDEN.
Maybe same person.
-
Wow you guys are good. So how do I find out what Maja Casia Safgren’s husbands name was? Brt. palmstrom on FamilySearch and other people on forum have said is an abbreviation Bet.
https://sok.riksarkivet.se/bildvisning/C0004339_00089#?c=&m=&s=&cv=88&xywh=478%2C1419%2C1979%2C2808 (https://sok.riksarkivet.se/bildvisning/C0004339_00089#?c=&m=&s=&cv=88&xywh=478%2C1419%2C1979%2C2808)
Thx
I'm not sure if it's Brt och Brd but it sure is an abbreviation. But so is P, note the : before Almström, even if it written with a lower-case A. But anders in the next box is also written with lower-case a. Brt/Brd can be an abbreviation for a first name or a title, P can be for a first name or a last name depending on what Brt/Brd is. The last name could also be a misspelled Alström or Ahlström since there are a Per Ahlström in Uppsala in that period.
-
https://www.familysearch.org/search/hrsearch?givenname=Maria%20Casia&surname=Safgren&birth_place=Sweden&birth_year_from=1754&birth_year_to=1756&collection_id=1520594&gender=F&count=20&offset=0 (https://www.familysearch.org/search/hrsearch?givenname=Maria%20Casia&surname=Safgren&birth_place=Sweden&birth_year_from=1754&birth_year_to=1756&collection_id=1520594&gender=F&count=20&offset=0)
2nd one down from top. Maria Catharine Safgren had a boy named Lars Gustav on the 10th March 1781 in DANMARK, UPPSALA, SWEDEN.
Maybe same person.
"Pig: Maria Catharina Säfgren i Öf. Säfja skyller på en skomakare gesäll" She "blames it on a shoemaker apprentice", Lol
https://sok.riksarkivet.se/bildvisning/C0003292_00045#?c=&m=&s=&cv=44&xywh=-326%2C2463%2C4287%2C2065 (https://sok.riksarkivet.se/bildvisning/C0003292_00045#?c=&m=&s=&cv=44&xywh=-326%2C2463%2C4287%2C2065)
Well, it definitely is the parish Danmark and not the country. And I see a connection between the last name Säfgren and the farm Säfja.
-
[repeating stuff, b/c I was trying to follow them while you guys were conversing ...:)]
OK, so if we follow Maria Kajsa, b. 1755's parents, there's a note in the household record saying they moved to Danmark 1781.
The moving-in record is in Danmark B:1 (1780-1835) (Bildid@RA: C0003288_00029 (https://sok.riksarkivet.se/bildvisning/C0003288_00029), #64 and 65), and
they are noted in the hfl AI:6 (1780-1788), p 86, #6 on the page.
Living with them is another grand-child, D[aughters] S[on] Lars Gustav, b. 1781-03-10 in Danmark.
His birth notice is in Danmark C:2, p 74 (Bildid@RA: C0003292_00045 (https://sok.riksarkivet.se/bildvisning/C0003292_00045)), and his mother is "Maria Catharina Säfgren" (and she "blames a cobblers apprentice"). The birth notice has her down as a piga in Övre Sävja, but I can't find her there.
In 1786, probably, Johan Säfgren with family moved back to Uppsala. The moving-out record for Denmark in 1786 is not complete, and they are not noted; and there is none for Uppsala that early, unfortunately.
mvh /staffan
-
https://sok.riksarkivet.se/bildvisning/C0004339_00089#?c=&m=&s=&cv=88&xywh=478%2C1419%2C1979%2C2808
Can anyone help with the names of Sponsors or Witnesses to the baptism or christening of Johan Peter Palmstrom B 1776/77.
Also the shoemaker was only Lars Gustav’s father, correct?
Also from another persons interpretation of Brt.
As I read it, the parents are written "Fadren: Bet: Palmstrøm, Modren Maja-Caisa Safgren"
The words "Fadren" and "Bet:" is written with Gothic/Nordic script, while "Palmstrøm" and other names are written in Latin script.
This means that "Bet:" is (an abbreviation) for a title. To speculate, it may be "Betjänt" - i.e. some lower official/officer of state, municipality, church, institution or other organisation, inlcuding military, mining company, postal service, etc.
What do you all think?
Thx everyone.
-
https://sok.riksarkivet.se/bildvisning/C0004339_00089#?c=&m=&s=&cv=88&xywh=478%2C1419%2C1979%2C2808 (https://sok.riksarkivet.se/bildvisning/C0004339_00089#?c=&m=&s=&cv=88&xywh=478%2C1419%2C1979%2C2808)
Can anyone help with the names of Sponsors or Witnesses to the baptism or christening of Johan Peter Palmstrom B 1776/77.
Also the shoemaker was only Lars Gustav’s father, correct?
Also from another persons interpretation of Brt.
As I read it, the parents are written "Fadren: Bet: Palmstrøm, Modren Maja-Caisa Safgren"
The words "Fadren" and "Bet:" is written with Gothic/Nordic script, while "Palmstrøm" and other names are written in Latin script.
This means that "Bet:" is (an abbreviation) for a title. To speculate, it may be "Betjänt" - i.e. some lower official/officer of state, municipality, church, institution or other organisation, inlcuding military, mining company, postal service, etc.
What do you all think?
Thx everyone.
Here is a book of all people living in Uppsala 1780-90, and there is an And.(ers) And.(ersson) Almström with the title "ung betjänt". Maybe ha had an older brother with a first name starting with P? There are no Palmström though, only Palmgren and Palmberg. There is another register over people in Uppsala 1749-1779 but I can't find it on Riksarkivet.
https://sok.riksarkivet.se/bildvisning/C0004215_00013#?c=&m=&s=&cv=12&xywh=289%2C1902%2C3063%2C1452 (https://sok.riksarkivet.se/bildvisning/C0004215_00013#?c=&m=&s=&cv=12&xywh=289%2C1902%2C3063%2C1452)
-
The witnesses (faddrarna) at Johan Peters christening 1777-08-07:
Stud[iosu?]s= Auct: ?? Wenström
?? ?? ?? Carl Jernholm
trädgårdsdr[äng] Nordströms hustru Cath(arina?) Kihlbom
Pig: An[n]a Caisa Sundström
Uppsala domkyrkoförsamling (C) Ca:5 (1766-1812) Bild 84 / fol 77v
Doubtful if the first two are relatives, but the two latter may be.
The shoemaker was only LG's father ...
I would suggest you try to find Maja Kajsa in the household records for Danmark at the time Johan Peter was conceived. She may be named only Jansdotter ... Her parents lived in Danmark until June 1777, and she's not noted when they move out to Uppsala (Danmark (C) AI:5 (1774-1780) sid 186).
Also look for an Almström or Palmström, possibly a "Betjänt" (which also may be something like a butler).
mvh /staffan
-
The witnesses (faddrarna) at Johan Peters christening 1777-08-07:
Stud[iosu?]s= Auct: ?? Wenström
?? ?? ?? Carl Jernholm
trädgårdsdr[äng] Nordströms hustru Cath(arina?) Kihlbom
Pig: An[n]a Caisa Sundström
I believe the last part of Wenströms title is "wachtmäst:"
-
Can anyone find out which year Johan Peter Palmstrom came to Kristiansand, Norway? thx Fetchitnow
-
I also found this birth certificate:
Johan Renh. Palmstrom
9th December 1784
NEDRE ULLERUD, VARMLAND, SWEDEN
Father: Johan Palmstrom.
The other Johan Peter Palmstrom was born in 1777 in Uppsala, BUT his father BET. P. Almstrom, was born in 1762/63 and died in 1823 in Kristiansand, Norway at the age of 60. He would’ve only been a 15 year old father and Maja Caisa Safgren would’ve been about 22. Does that sound reasonable?
-
Hi festerman, thx for this, but do you have a link for - Her parents lived in Danmark until June 1777, and she's not noted when they move out to Uppsala (Danmark (C) AI:5 (1774-1780) sid 186). Thx Fetchitnow
-
Mark, you've lost me ...
How did you get from a (something) Palmström, or (as my esteemed colleague has pointed out) more likely P. Almström (may be Peter, as that is the name the son gets, in addition to grand-pa's), as a father in Uppsala or Danmark parish, to a P. Almström that died in Kristiansand? Are there first-hand sources?
Let me be a wet blanket, and point out that:
- Kristiansand is a long way from Uppsala, and in another country that was not very friendly with Sweden in the 18th century (Norway was part of Denmark, the country)
- 15-year-old fathers were not common -- it was a grievous sin in the 18th century to have sex outside of marriage, and the marriage age was 18 at the time. Also that would have made Maja Kajsa the older, by 8 years, uncommon now, and likewise then ...
- Anyone could change their name whenever they wanted, and commonly did when they were in any profession other than farmer (soldiers even got their names changed for them). The only restriction was that you could not use a name from the nobility. And there was no noble families by the names Almström or Palmström at the time (there was actually a family Palmström, that died out before the times we are moving in). Almström is a name formed on a common pattern, from natural phenomena or placenames: Alm (english: elm, or the parish Almunge, close to Uppsala) + ström (eng: stream), and has been "invented" many times ...
- Data out of indexes (FamilySearch, etc) often have errors, caused by misreading by non-native readers, because of pure language barriers, but also from cultural barriers, and from unfamiliarity with the history. This also affects americans when it comes to their swedish roots ... ;). Also, most of the indexing has been done from old microfilms of fairly low quality -- we have better quality pictures now.
In conclusion, the Almström that dies in Kristiansand, and the Palmström that fathers a son in Värmland are almost definitely not the same person, and most probably none of them are the father of Johan Peter, b 1777 in Uppsala.
So, regroup, rethink, start over: why are you looking for these people? How did you reach Johan Peter? Do you have any sources from his later life?
mvh /staffan
-
Danmark (C) AI:5 (1774-1780) Bild 194 / sid 186 (AID: v123992.b194.s186 (http://www.arkivdigital.se/aid/show/v123992.b194.s186), NAD: SE/ULA/10172):
Rytt[aren] Joh[an] Säfgrens h[ustru] Kajsa Lindström fick besked til Upsala 1777 d 6 Junii
translated
Cavalryman Johan Säfgrens wife Kajsa Lindström was given (permission?) to move to Upsala June 6th, 1777
Had to look it up again, took a minute ...
There's no mention of the daughter, and rightly so, she's 22 years old and about her own life.
The "ryttare" (rider, cavalryman) himself is noted at the back, p 229 in the same book, at #101.
mvh /staffan
-
Ok I will take time out and read what you wrote.
I really do appreciate all of your help, thx.
It’s just that my GGGrandfather Charles Peterson, came to Australia in 1856. In 1855 he married an Ellen Cavanagh in Troy, New York, USA. On his death certificate in Australia it says, born in Arendal, Norway in 1828. Their is no Charles Peterson that was born in Arendal, Norway in 1828/29. The only man born then was a Johan Carl Palmstrom, with parents Peter Andreas Palmstrom and Elizabeth Marie Larsdatter/ Thomasen. Peter Andreas Palmstrom’s father was a Johan Peter Palmstrom and his wife a Maria Catrine Pedersdatter / Staal / Stol.
——-
( We know that our ancestors originally came from Sweden and we know a Johan Peter Palmstrom was born in about 1763/4 in Sweden.
Here is the death and buried record for Johan Palmstrøm - he was a widower when he died, age 60: )
( Vest-Agder county, Kristiansand in Kristiansand, Parish register (official) no. A 9 (1821-1827), Deceased and buried 1824, Page 318
Permanent image ID: kb20070607360329
Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070607360329
Permanent image-link: http://urn.digitalarkivet.no/URN:NBN:no-a1450-kb20070607360329.jpg )
( Borgerruller for Kristiansand (a listing of persons who received citizenships in Kristiansand) page 206:
Johan Peter Palmstrom - Snekkermester, Swedish.
Got citizenship on the 19 December 1805 )
———-
The other thing is the Nobility family of Johan Mattson Lange had a Johan Carl Palmstrom leave Kragero, Norway in about 1854/55 and went to Australia VIA USA.
The missing link:
Anna Jonsdotter, (daughter of Johan Palmström and 'unknown woman'). Anna was born out of wedlock.
She married Petter Eriksson.
1. Jonas Palmström, * About 1704, † 3 May 1760 in Stora Wrem, Bohuslän.
Jonas has probably taken the name Palmström around 1749 after his grandfather Johan (Jean) Palmström (1648-1705).
You can look it all up at www.palmstrom.net
———-
Our family has had a lot of the nobility family’s names throughout the years, such as; Anna Maria, Johan, Gustav, Peter, Carl, etc.
Their is absolutely NO records or certificates of that name in Australia, like Death, Marriage, Children’s baptisms or Christenings.
So I think, my Charles Peterson changed his name from Johan Carl Palmstrom, most likely when he arrived in the USA, because we found the ships passenger list from New York to Australia from 1856 with a C. Peterson and E. Peterson.
Thx Mark Peterson - Fetchitnow
-
Hi festerman. Yes their were Palmstrom families of the time. Check out www.palmstrom.net and you will see where I am going with my search, thx again, Mark Peterson
-
Hi again ...
So, australian, not american, sorry for that ... :) Should have guessed from the times when you're active!
Here's an unsorted list of remarks I have after I've had a look at your stuff; but first let me say that I am no expert on the norwegian archives (not really on the swedish ones, either, but at least those are the ones I usually work in), and I see you have a very active thread @ Digitalarkivet (https://forum.arkivverket.no/topic/235561-palmstrom-family-search/), and those guys will be a lot better at that than me ...
- I don't see the Johan Carl Palmström that left Kragerø for the States, etc, on the tree on the web site. The Kragerø branch of Palmströms from the web site only starts in the 1850's with Lorenz P. #36 moving there and getting married. None of his would have been old enough to get on a ship to the States until in the 1870's.
- On the other hand you do have the Johan Carl Palmström that was born in Arendal in 1829 moving to Kragerø in time for moving on to the States ... Petersen/Peterson would be his patronymic.
- The Anders Palmström, in Floby (P), that's mentioned in the DA thread, is Andreas Palmström, #374 on the Palmstrøm web site. None of his kids fit the Johan Peter that comes to Kristiansand and makes master carpenter before 1802 (when he marries).
- The birth record for Johan Reinhold Palmström in Nedre Ullerud that you found is an illustration of my point above about the indexes ... Johan Reinhold Palmström was baptized 1684-12-09 in Nedre Ullerud, and died on the battlefield at Poltava in 1709. See here, (the first) table 3 (https://www.adelsvapen.com/genealogi/Palmstr%C3%B6m_nr_867) (and yes, I know, it's a second or third hand source ... but I have confirmed that the birth in 1784 does not exist.)
- The christian names Anna, Maria, Johan, Gustav, Peter, Carl, etc are not specific to nobility -- in fact they are very common swedish (and norwegian) names among all strata of society
- Elgenstierna was obviously wrong about the Palmström line dying out in 1746 ...
I do think the Palmströms in Bohuslän, Älvsborg, Skaraborg and Värmland are a much better fit as ancestry for someone that went to Kristiansand in the late seventeen-hundreds. It looks like there are some loose ends in the tree, maybe one of them had a son?
I also think that the Johan Peter in Uppsala is a false track -- I really do think his father was an P. Almström, not a Palmström, and it's unlikely a "Bet", regardless of if he's a butler, or a lower official, would turn up as a carpenters apprentice 20 years later, clear across the country and into the next. Actually, Johan Peter himself is a better fit -- if he's a Palmström, and if we ignore the carpenters age at death; but we would need to follow him to Kristiansand! Not easy, given that the only thing we've seen of him is his birth record. Maybe he promply died, as happened altogether too often ...
I'll add a link to this thread in the one at DA, for the benefit of future genealogists.
mvh /staffan
-
This is one of the family members of the Johan Mattson Lange / Palmstrom nobility family. This is why we think that our Johan Carl Palmstrom is linked to the nobility family of Johan Mattson Lange Palmstrom.
#36 Lorenz Palmström (1828 – 1907) og hans etterkommere i Norge (Kragerø-grenen). Lorenz var sønn av #33 Andreas Palmström og Kristina. Han flyttet til Norge i 1850-årene.
There is a connection between Peter Andreas Palmstrøm (1803) & Andreas Palmstrøm (1805) (Lorentz 1828 and Elisebeth 1844 & Ole Lauritz 1838 lived in the same street in Tyholmen in Arendal in 1865 ) They knew each other.
Looking at this excerpt from the Palmstrøm family website shows that there are unknowns in this family. For example this paragraph.
"#302 Johan Palmström1 had a daughter, #548 Anna Jonsdotter, with an unknown woman. The mother died shortly after Anna was born. Anna married #549 Petter Eriksson and their son, Jonas, took the surname "Palmström" of his grandfather."
The box of descendants from Johan Mattson Lange shows a line through the unknown woman to Jonas Palmstrøm to several children including one labelled unknown son *255'
It may be the Johan Peter Palmstrøm who was married to Marie Catherine Petersdatter Stahl who is the link.
http://palmstrom.net/AP/english/english_text.pdf
-
Thx again festerman and everyone else, for all your help. Mark Peterson
PS: The www.palmstrom.net website had (VIA USA) written on their website about 6 months ago, but have now deleted that wording for some reason. Maybe they don’t want people to get to the bottom of the Palmstrom child, born out of wedlock.....
Some Palmström family members who have left Norway
PERSON
TRAVEL
Comment
BK no.
Name
Born
Date leaving
From
To.
#1425
Johan Carl Palmstrøm
1829
1855 (?)
Kristiansand a), Norway
Australia
-
This one looks a better match.
Peter Jonsson
B: 1745
HYSSNA, ALVSBORG, SWEDEN
father: Jonas Pehrsson
>
Jonas Pehrsson
TOLLSJO, ALVSBORG, SWEDEN
7th February 1727
Father: Pehr
Mother: Anna
-
Sorry festerman, but Johan Carl Palmstrom left Kristiansand, Norway, not Kragero, for Australia via USA in about 1854/55. Which was written on www.palmstrom.net website about 6 months ago and now someone has deleted the VIA USA wording. Don’t know why they did that.
-
Hi,
have to be a wet blanket again, sorry :(
#1425 Johan Carl Palmstrøm, b1829
1855 (?)
Kristiansand a), Norway
Australia
If the guys behind the palmstrom.net (http://palmstrom.net) website decided to take this off the tree, it's most likely because they have some kind of data behind the decision. Did you ask them about that? I seriously doubt they are trying to hide anything -- you wouldn't put up a website if that is how you are thinking ...- Jonas Palmströms unnamed son #255 must have been born before 1760 (since Jonas died then). Since there is a probate after Jonas, he would probably have been named there, unless he was already dead by 1760. So, no kids after #255 ...
- The name Palmström is not very common in Sweden, but:
- there is one family of smiths mostly around Vedevåg, Linde (T) around 1750-1800
- there's a bunch in Finland (and that may be the source of your P. in Västerbotten: a lot of people fled from the russians when they invaded Finland, and came to Västerbotten and around)
- and there are a few soldiers called Palmström
Peter Andreas Palmstrøm (1803) & Andreas Palmstrøm (1805) (Lorentz 1828 and Elisebeth 1844 & Ole Lauritz 1838 lived in the same street in Tyholmen in Arendal in 1865) They knew each other.
1865 is 10 years after Johan Carl left Kristiansand for the States, and he was born 30 years before that. Lorentz moved to Norway in the 1850's, Andreas (b 1805, his father) came after in 1864. From Wikipedia it appears Tyholmen is the old part of Arendal -- in 1865 maybe everyone in Arendal lived there?- You won't find the Swedish parents of Johan Peter Palmström, the master carpenter, from indexed births -- there will be literally thousands of Johan's and/or Peter/Petter/Per's born during the (guessed) time span of 1760/65, in the part of Sweden closest to Norway alone. Since it doesn't appear to be one of the indexed Palmströms, your hope lies in following the trail backwards. One suggestion is the city archivist of Kristiansand: the sources for the "borgarrulle" are apparently in a card index kept at the city archives. Maybe those sources have a clue?
Good luck! mvh /staffan
-
Thx festerman, but he could’ve easily been born after his father died. It takes 9 months on average, from the deed to the birth.LOL. Thx Mark Peterson PS: I will take your great advice and insight and work on it. Also I have emailed the creator of the www.palmstrom.net website and still no reply. Why have it on their as VIA USA for maybe years and then take it off?
-
The one that was born after Jonas #28 died, was Jonas #29, and he went on to have, among others, Andreas #33 (b 1805), that in his turn fathered the two brothers that moved to Norway ... :)
mvh /staffan
-
- You won't find the Swedish parents of Johan Peter Palmström, the master carpenter, from indexed births -- there will be literally thousands of Johan's and/or Peter/Petter/Per's born during the (guessed) time span of 1760/65, in the part of Sweden closest to Norway alone. Since it doesn't appear to be one of the indexed Palmströms, your hope lies in following the trail backwards. One suggestion is the city archivist of Kristiansand: the sources for the "borgarrulle" are apparently in a card index kept at the city archives. Maybe those sources have a clue?[/l][/l][/l][/l][/l][/l]
Agree on that. But if I would guess, the right person probably was from Bohuslän county, including Gothenburg. This was norwegian land until 1658 and in the mid 1700s the ties to Norway was still very strong. And since water was easy transportation the connection over the Oslo fjord was always very frequent, actually all the way down to Gothenburg respectively Kristiansand. Värmland county also had a lot of connection to Norway, but mostly to the area closest to them, east of Oslo. But of course not everyone chooses the "obvious" place to relocate to so Palmström might be from anywhere.
[/list]
-
Thx again huggorm and festerman. People of knowledge indeed, thx Mark Peterson
-
Anna Maria Palmstrom B: 1738 and married in 1759, so maybe she had a Johan Palmstrom in 1762/3 with her husband Johan Lithberg?
Her mother was Anna Cathrina Myrin and father was Johan Palmstrom.
Also looks like they were all from Skolvene, Alvsborgs, Sweden area. thx Mark Peterson
-
Hi again!
You're right -- but it appears the palmstrom.net (http://www.palmstrom.net/AP/stamtre/1-12_ledd.pdf) guys have already considered that: Anna Maria P and Johan Lithberg did have a son Johan (#433 on the tree) -- born in 1759, dead in 1767. So he did not go to Norway to be a carpenter ...
Anna Maria had two younger sister that are also marginally possible: Anna Katarina, and Märta (they are all big sisters to Andreas/Anders, #33, that we have talked about above).
But (and now I'm bringing out the wet blanket again :( ): even though the name customs were not as set in stone as they are to day, it was still the norm that kids would get their name after their father. I've seen examples to the contrary, but it's rare. So without other evidence ... not probable.
mvh /staffan
-
Thx again festerman. What about this guy?
Found on FamilySearch:
Jn. B. H. Palmstrom
B: 1744 Ånimskog Socken, Älvsborg, Sweden
D: 1820 Ånimskog Socken, Älvsborg, Sweden
Maybe this is Johan Peter Palmstrom’s father.
If not, I’m going to give up, so thx to everyone for their great help, thx Mark Peterson
-
Hi again ...
where does the information come from? You should always include that ...
The widow Brita Helena Norstrand, born Palmström, died May 17, 1820, and was buried May 28. (Ånimskog (P) E:1 (1817-1860) Bild 39 / sid 67 (AID: v14008.b39.s67 (http://www.arkivdigital.se/aid/show/v14008.b39.s67), NAD: SE/GLA/13655)). The text in the death notice is "Enke Fru B. H. Palmström". She was married to the priest E Norstrand, who died the year before (Tössbo häradsrätt (P) FII:17 (1818-1820) Bild 146 / sid 285 (AID: v143192.b146.s285 (http://www.arkivdigital.se/aid/show/v143192.b146.s285), NAD: SE/GLA/11114)).
Her probate (Tössbo häradsrätt (P) FII:17 (1818-1820) Bild 391 / sid 775 (AID: v143192.b391.s775 (http://www.arkivdigital.se/aid/show/v143192.b391.s775), NAD: SE/GLA/11114)) mentions her living kids: sons C. G Qwick and Hendrik Qwick, and daughters Anna Catharina and Clara Christina. Apparently she was married to a guy named Qwick before ...
I can't find Britta Helena on the Palmstrøm website, so she may be an unknown relative, but I don't think you've found the ancestry of the master carpenter. Sorry!
mvh /staffan
EDIT: corrected the name of one of the kids
-
Hi festerman, I found it on FamilySearch. Thx Mark Peterson
-
Right, so this is another instance of where the indexer has got it slightly wrong (the FamilySearch record is https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FKL8-CZS).
I actually turned up some info on the Palmstrøm web site about Britta Helena. I'll take the liberty of excerpting and translating selected parts of the document. The author is Rolf Nummelin, #393 on the tree, the document is dated as "Revised 2004-06-10" and the document is at http://www.palmstrom.net/AP/personer/palmstrom-familien_1621-1900.pdf. The text begins on p 30.
[...]
Table 60
Carl Palmström, born 1707, possibly in Norrköping, where there are several with the name Palmström. Married to Anna Christina Harling, born 1706. Her parents were the sexton of Västra Harg, Johan Gregoriusson Harling and Inger
Olofsdotter. Inspector Carl Palmström and Anna Christina probably had more children than the four that are known:
* Anna Christina, born September 4, 1739 in Fellingsbro ...
* Britta Helena, born January 25, 1744 in Salbo, dead May 17, 1820 at Lunds
gästgivargård, Ånimskog. Married October 20, 1774 to Henrik Qvick (1735-
1811); their children, born between August 4, 1775 and July 18, 1787:
** Anna Catharina, gift Daniel Larsson
** Clara Christina, gästgivarhustru, gift Tyberg Carl Gustaf, länsman
** Henrik
Britta Helena Palmström remarried the curate E. Nordstrand in
Tössbo parish. He died February 18 1819.
* Johan = Jean, born December 4, 1746 in Salbo ...
* Carl, born November 29, 1750 in Salbo ...
[...]
I [Rolf N.] have not found a direct connection between table 60 [i.e. Britta Helenas father Carl] and the rest of the Palmströms, with the exception of the geographic locations.
There are several persons with the name Palmström, that originate from Norrköping and the surrounding area. They are included [in this document] only because sooner or later some researcher will encounter them. [...].
And now some researcher has encountered them ...
I'll note that Rolf N. had not read Britta Helenas probate, as it has some more info on her children.
mvh /staffan
-
Hi festerman, I received this from someone.
If Johan Peter Palmstrøm 1762 was a descedant of
Gustaf Palmstrøm 1712-1764 f.2.aug.1712 Nedre Ullerud gm. Margaretha Blanckenfjell 1646-1723
Datteren Anna Elisabeth Palmstrøm (1679 – 1738) var gift med Lennart Lindestrøm (1680-1718)og Petter Ahling (1678- ??)
#7Anna Elisabeth Palmstrøm f. 30.04.1679 – 1738 -dotter av ryttmästaren Gustaf Palmström, och Margareta Blanckenfjell
https://www.adelsvapen.com/genealogi/Lindeström_nr_549#TAB_3
Lennart (son av Johan, Tab. 2), till Knäpplan och Sörberga. Född omkring 1680. Dragon vid bremiska dragonregementet 1699-12-09. Sergeant vid Kronobergs regemente 1700-10-06. Kornett vid skånska stånddragonregementet 1700-12-06. Löjtnant vid skånska tremänningskavalleriregementet 1701-06-01. Ryttmästare vid skånska tremänningskavalleriregementet 1709-12-09. Avsked 1713-01-27. Död 1718. Han hade 1713 flera barn.
Gift 1705-12-28. på Blomberg i Husaby socken, Skaraborgs län med Anna Elisabet Palmström i hennes 1:a gifte (gift 2:o 1719-08-12 med kaptenen vid Västgöta tremänningsinfanteriregemente Peter Ahling i hans 2:a gifte, född 1678-04-30), dotter av ryttmästaren Gustaf Palmström, och Margareta Blanckenfjell.
Gift 28 December 1705 med: #8 Lennart Johansson Lindeström (ca.1680-1718) (ryttmester) BOSTED: STOCKHOLM
BARN: Anna Elisabeth Palmstrøm (1679) hadde flere barn med Lennart Lindeström (ca. 1680) enn angitt under, (ifølge brev fra år 1713).
1. #404Anna Beata Lindeström (1706-1764) Gm. Bengt Udd (1697-1781)
▪ (Barna er listet opp i stamtreet)
2. #405Jonas Lindeström (??- etter 1741) (1707 – 11.07.1767 i Danderyd Stockholm?) bodde 1741 i Vadensjö socken, Malmöhus län.
▪ Barn:
3. #406Bengt Lindeström (f.etter 1707?) gm. Ukjent. Var han gift med Catarina Lundberg ?
▪ Barn: Johan Peter Lindstrøm – døpt 13.juni 1766 i Adolf Fredriks forsamling, Stockholm
4. # Johan Lindstrøm, gm. Anna Stina Oman -bosted Stockholm
▪ Barn: Johan Peter Lindstrøm – født 24.des.1762, døpt 25.des.1762 i Katarina, Stockholm
5. # Mathias Lindstrøm, gm. Helena Krem – bosted Stockholm
▪ Barn: Johan Peter Lindstrøm – døpt 31.jan. 1764 i Jacob og Johannes, Stockholm
Hi, Mark
If this Johan Lindstrøm is the son of Anna Elisabeth and Lennart Johansson, we have found OUR Johan Peter Palmstrøm BORN IN 1762 (as the 1801-counting in Kristiansand says). Then Johan Peter must have changed his familyname to Palmstrøm after his grandmother, just like Jonas Palmstrøm (ab.1704) did about 1749 – when he took the name Palmstrøm after his grandfather.
-
Hi festerman, Look at the Johan Peter Lindstrøm 1762. His father was Johan Lindstrøm. If this Johan Lindstrøms father can be proved to be Lennart Lindestrøm. Then Johan Peter Lindstrøm 1762 may have changed his familyname to Palmstrøm. Thx Mark Peterson PS: It was from FamilySearch from another person trying to trace Johan Peter Palmstrom.
-
OK, so we have three candidates:
- Johan Peter, b 1766-06-11, bp 1766-06-13, in Adolf Fredrik1, parents Bengt Lindström and wife Catharina Lundberg. Bengt is a fireman ("brandwachtssoldat"). None of the witnesses are named Palmström, nor Lindström.
- Johan Peter, b 1762-12-24, bp 1762-12-25, in Katarina2, parents Joh[an] Lindström and wife An[n]a Stina Öman. Johan Peter has a twin brother Carl Eric. Father Johan is a fireman ... No Palmströms among the witnesses, but two Lindströms.
- Johan Petter, b 1764-01-31, bp the same day, in Jakob och Johannes3, parents Mathias Lindström and wife Helena Krem. Mathias is a valet ("Cammartienaren herr Mathias ..."). None of the witnesses are named Palmström (nor Lindström).
So, wet blanket time :( ...
- Lindström is not an uncommon name -- the birth records book for Jakob och Johannes (1760-1767) has a name index, and list 6 or 7 other Lindströms that have kids in that parish alone in that time period. Remember the comment about Almström above? Lindström is constructed the same way, from "Lind" (eng = "linden tree", or any placename with Lind in it (many ...)) and "ström" = "stream." How certain are our three prospective fathers' links to Lennart Lindeström?
- There can't be information tying the Lindströms having babies in Stockholm in the 1760's to Anna Elisabeth P #7 in a letter dated 1713. In fact, Anna Elisabeths roots in Skaraborg seem pretty deep: born there, married there (twice), buried there. And it's the same with Lennart. Why would their kids not grow up there? What's the source for her and Lennart living in Stockholm?
- Why would the Lindströms change their name to Palmström? That Jonas #28 did probably was because when he started to get up in society he needed a name ... so he took his grandfather's name, because neither of his parents had one ... Our candidates also have mothers' and paternal grandmothers' family names to choose from, if they want to change ...
- ... and you still have to connect the Johan Peter born in Stockholm to the Johan Peter that turns up in Kristiansand, before you can shout BINGO!
So, in conclusion: 1) the link between any of the Lindströms having sons named Johan Peter in Stockholm in the early 1760's and the Palmström family is tenuous; 2) the link between a Johan Peter Lindström born in Stockholm in the early 1760's and a Johan Peter Palmström that turns up in Kristiansand in 1801 will be hard to find.
mvh /staffan
1 Adolf Fredrik (A, AB) CIa:4 (1760-1775) Bild 112 (AID: v81685.b112 (http://www.arkivdigital.se/aid/show/v81685.b112), NAD: SE/SSA/0001)
2 Katarina (A, AB) CII:4 (1752-1762) Bild 2730 / fol 269v (AID: v220791.b2730.s270 (http://www.arkivdigital.se/aid/show/v220791.b2720.s269), NAD: SE/SSA/0009)
3 Jakob och Johannes (A, AB) CIa:16 (1760-1767) Bild 118 / fol 91v (AID: v86369.b118.s92 (http://www.arkivdigital.se/aid/show/v86369.b118.s92), NAD: SE/SSA/0008)
-
On FamilySearch it says:
Birth Date: 24th December 1762
Name Note: Twillinger
What does Twillinger mean? Twins....
Thx Mark Peterson
-
On FamilySearch it says:
Birth Date: 24th December 1762
Name Note: Twillinger
What does Twillinger mean? Twins....
Thx Mark Peterson
Yes. Seems like that Johan Peter had a twin brother called Carl Eric
-
Yes. And I’m after a connection with my Johan Carl Palmstrom. A father named Johan and his twin brother named Carl. Looks a good match, for a son ( Peter Andreas Palmstrom ) to name his son ( Johan Carl Palmstrom ) after both his father and uncle. Mmmmm maybe. Thx Mark Peterson
-
Fireman Johan (Svensson? Jaensson?) Lindström, 24 years old from Björkskog in Västmanland, and Anna Stina Jönsdotter Öman, 23 years old from Trosa, were married in Maria Magdalena 1759-12-02. The banns where (said?) November 16. The marriage was sponsored by cobbler ("skoflickaren") Johan Bohman and (majordomo?) ("hofmäst.") Eric Lindström.
Maria Magdalena (A, AB) EI:3 (1756-1774) Bild 39 / sid 71 (AID: v88262.b39.s71 (http://www.arkivdigital.se/aid/show/v88262.b39.s71), NAD: SE/SSA/0012)
Note that this makes Johan Lindström born about 1735, too young to be the son of Lennart Lindeström, or mentioned in the letter of 1713 (and Anna Elisabeth P #7 would have been pretty old for a mother (around 50) ...)
mvh /staffan
-
Ok thx festerman,
-
Can anyone please find out if this couple married or not and when and where they all died, Norway or Sweden. Thx Mark Peterson.
Johannes Johansson
Uddevala, Göteborg Och Bohus, Sweden
Born: 26th November 1789.
Father: Johan Palmstrom
Mother: Johanna Pehrsdotter
-
Can anyone please find out if this couple married or not and when and where they all died, Norway or Sweden. Thx Mark Peterson.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FK16-L2X (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FK16-L2X)
Can't view that page without logging in
-
Hi again! :)
You do need an account at FamilySearch -- but it doesn't cost anything (well worth the money ... )
The birth record is Uddevalla (O) C:5 (1775-1795) Bild 201 / fol 196v (AID: v2242.b201.s197 (http://www.arkivdigital.se/aid/show/v2242.b201.s197), NAD: SE/GLA/13595), and the beginning of the text is:
Nov 27 [1789]
Båtföraren Johan Holmströms och dess 38 år gamla hustru Johanna Pehrsdotters son Johannes född d: 26 ...
Incorrectly indexed ... sorry.
The rest are the wittnesses, and there are no Palmströms there either.
Are you still interested in knowing about their marriage? The son, Johannes Johansson, is too young to be the master carpenter, isn't he? Don't know the age of Johan Holmström, the "boat driver", but it's likely he's too old ...
mvh /staffan
-
Sailor Johan Hindriksson Holmström and "pigan" Johanna Katarina Björnberg were married Feb 2, 1775 (Uddevalla (O) C:5 (1775-1795) Bild 295 / fol 301r (AID: v2242.b295.s301 (http://www.arkivdigital.se/aid/show/v2242.b295.s301)).
"Båtföraren" Johan H died Aug 22, 1796 (Uddevalla (O) C:6 (1796-1812) Bild 288 / fol 292r (AID: v2243.b288.s292 (http://www.arkivdigital.se/aid/show/v2243.b288.s292)). He was 56 years old, so born about 1740.
In 1813, the widow, Johanna Katarina and some of her kids, among them Johan H, b 1789-11-26, are noted at No 55, 2nd examination district (2ndra förhörsroten). Johan H is said to be at sea. (Uddevalla (O) AI:1 (1812-1814) Bild 14 / sid 18 (AID: v2184.b14.s19 (http://www.arkivdigital.se/aid/show/v2184.b14.s19))).
(Some of) the church books for Uddevalla (and many other parishes) have been indexed as part of what was a kind of employment support ("statligt arkivarbete") in the 1930's and -40's. These indexes (or at least some) have been photographed by ArkivDigital. The quality of these are a lot better than the ones you find at FamilySearch ...
mvh /staffan
-
Hi Festerman and Huggorm, I was thinking maybe Johan Palmstrom, might’ve married Johanna and had a boy named Johannes. Then left them and went to Kristiansand, Norway and started a new life with Marie Cathrine Pedersdotter and had a son Peter Andreas Palmstrom, etc. He could’ve been born in 1762 in Sweden, which would’ve made him 27 when he had a boy named Johannes with Johanna. Just a thought....thx Mark Peterson
-
Johan Carl Palmstrøm died 7th December 1855, "carpenter apprentice", 26 1/2 years old.
Entry no 14:
Aust-Agder county, Arendal in Arendal, Parish register (official) no. A 6 (1855-1868), Deceased and buried 1855, Page 323, Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060208010323
Entry no 15 in the parish register copy:
Aust-Agder county, Arendal in Arendal, Parish register (copy) no. B 2 (1838-1860), Deceased and buried 1856, Page 261, Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070329650346
https://forum.arkivverket.no/topic/236301-johan-carl-palmstrom-death-certificate/page/4/?tab=comments#comment-2019591 (https://forum.arkivverket.no/topic/236301-johan-carl-palmstrom-death-certificate/page/4/?tab=comments#comment-2019591)
-
Staffan B
Har lit om Britta Helena 1744
Hennes Farfar. är lite svår, har tills vidare tänkt mig Lars Palmström Från Blomberg i Husaby,
men det är säkerligen fel.
Hennes farmor är Anna Hummer 1680-1763-02-12 i Sunne, Skinnaregården.
Hon verkar komma till sin son, när han är i Vedevåg.
Hennes föräldrar är även okända
Carls Hustru Anna Christina Harlings far är klockaren Gregorius Harling i V Harg.
Vänligen
Kenneth
Carls son JOhan född i Salbo gift 1786-10-19 enligt Personhistorisk tidskrift 1918-19 sid 72-75
-
Hej!
Den bifogade filen är trasig på något sätt -- går inte att läsa.
Har du sett http://www.palmstrom.net/AP/personer/15-lars_p.pdf, om Lars Palmström?
mvh /staffan
-
staffan
hoppas att denna pdf fil går att öppna
kenneth
-
Vi har ju lite rört oss från det ursprungliga ämnet i den här tråden -- men min huvudsakliga roll i diskussionen blev ju att vara en våt filt, och nu måste jag göra det igen. ::)
Jag har ju inte alls samma koll på de primära källorna, men din koppling av Lars Palmström som far till Carl Palmström, född i Norrköping 1707, går ju alldeles på tvärs mot Rolf Nummelins forskning ... En annan möjlig Palmström: kornetten Lars's kusin, Lorens (http://www.palmstrom.net/AP/personer/313-lorenz_p.pdf). Om Elgenstiernas uppgift om att han är född 1686 stämmer är han i yngsta laget, men ...
Jag antar att du har lus-läst födelselängder från Norrköping, utan att hitta något? Bouppteckningar? Mantalslängder? En annan möjlighet: de renoverade domböckerna från kämnärsrätt och rådhusrätt har namn-index i alla fall för några år runt 1707 -- alfabetiskt efter förnamn, så man måste läsa hela indexet, men ändå ...
mvh /staffan